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Re: Election 2012

Postby Thalia » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:05 pm

aureon wrote:There is no democratic equivalent of Fox News.
It's called MSNBC.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:08 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Religion is mostly irrelevant to left or right. I'm not sure why so many of your arguments are drawn to that. You can make an argument somewhat about parties, but not the left/right spectrum.


But in this case, aren't religious universities right-leaning? There was in the news a week or two ago about a religious university that had in their curriculum that homosexuality is a mental disorder. ==Correction==

Edit:
Found it
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/08/3 ... urriculum/
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:16 pm

That's just religious specific though. Polls one those issues find that religious democrats for instance aren't all that different than religious republicans. Keep in mind that a lot of the staunch opposition to gay marriage in religion is also concentrated in minorities who tend to be democrats.

The religious right is generally opposed to gay marriage, and I think the GOP is on their platform too. But limited government conservatives (which is where the spectrum actually moves to the right) are not generally opposed to it. Religion tends to muddy the waters on the left right spectrum.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Lieris » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:17 pm

Fridmarr wrote:The dictionary definition, as in wanting to stick with existing conditions/institutions? Meh not really, I don't think that's a political ideology for anyone really, though I would agree that they are more like that than liberals. That said they want to change liberal institutions as much as liberals want to change conservative institutions.

Lets just stick with the GOP platform (it's certainly heavily influenced by the religious right), I'll mention where I disagree with it and won't hold you unfairly to that, but I don't know how to find a better starting point and we need something.


I am sorry but I feel there is some serious cognitive dissonance required to identify as a conservative in America while also wanting to distance yourself from the GOP, Romney and the religious right. The way you try to rationalise it is very unconvincing. The liberal media, left wing intelligentsia mischaracterising conservatives conspiracy thing is real tinfoil hat stuff. I am fairly sure that Fox is happy to label its viewers as conservative.

Generally I think it's best to not identify as anything. I think people and politics are too complicated and too wide ranging for labels and your idea of what that label means might be very different to what other people think it means. These labels are a package deal with so much baggage, why be bogged down by them? I lean left on most issues but there are certain people on that side who I wouldn't want anyone to lump me with.

Ultimately like how my MP votes in the commons, all that matters is how you vote. Everything else is just talk. If you won't be voting GOP then great.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:23 pm

Fridmarr wrote:That's just religious specific though. Polls one those issues find that religious democrats for instance aren't all that different than religious republicans. Keep in mind that a lot of the staunch opposition to gay marriage in religion is also concentrated in minorities who tend to be democrats.

The religious right is generally opposed to gay marriage, and I think the GOP is on their platform too. But limited government conservatives (which is where the spectrum actually moves to the right) are not generally opposed to it. Religion tends to muddy the waters on the left right spectrum.


The difference is that the religious democrats that are not in favor of gay marriage are not actively trying to make their stance part of the party platform.

Its easier to automatically lump anti gay marriage sentiment to republicans/conservatives because it IS PART OF THEIR PARTY PLATFORM
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/gop-oks-p ... 47742.html
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:24 pm

Lieris wrote:I am sorry but I feel there is some serious cognitive dissonance required to identify as a conservative in America while also wanting to distance yourself from the GOP, Romney and the religious right. The way you try to rationalise it is very unconvincing. The liberal media, left wing intelligentsia mischaracterising conservatives conspiracy thing is real tinfoil hat stuff. I am fairly sure that Fox is happy to label its viewers as conservative.

Generally I think it's best to not identify as anything. I think people and politics are too complicated and too wide ranging for labels and your idea of what that label means might be very different to what other people think it means. These labels are a package deal with so much baggage, why be bogged down by them? I lean left on most issues but there are certain people on that side who I wouldn't want anyone to lump me with.

Ultimately like how my MP votes in the commons, all that matters is how you vote. Everything else is just talk. If you won't be voting GOP then great.


I frankly don't care whether you believe me or how you want to categorize me. I think the differences are night and day, but you don't so who cares, I'm not sure how it matters at the moment.

I won't be voting for Romney but I will probably be voting GOP for gov in my state and potentially other positions. Are you interested in engaging in the debate I offered?
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:25 pm

Lieris wrote: I lean left on most issues but there are certain people on that side who I wouldn't want anyone to lump me with.


I agree with this.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:30 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:That's just religious specific though. Polls one those issues find that religious democrats for instance aren't all that different than religious republicans. Keep in mind that a lot of the staunch opposition to gay marriage in religion is also concentrated in minorities who tend to be democrats.

The religious right is generally opposed to gay marriage, and I think the GOP is on their platform too. But limited government conservatives (which is where the spectrum actually moves to the right) are not generally opposed to it. Religion tends to muddy the waters on the left right spectrum.


The difference is that the religious democrats that are not in favor of gay marriage are not actively trying to make their stance part of the party platform.

Its easier to automatically lump anti gay marriage sentiment to republicans/conservatives because it IS PART OF THEIR PARTY PLATFORM
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/gop-oks-p ... 47742.html
Those people certainly are trying to and actually vote that way at times (see CA proposition for historical reference), just not the democratic leadership. Again, that's where conservatives differ from the GOP. It's pretty hard to argue for limited government on one hand and suggest that the government should control marriage on the other, they are mutually exclusive principles for many conservatives.

That's why I say that religion tends to muddy things a bit and you can't easily have a left/right conversation where you can't do anything but focus on religion.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:36 pm

One of Prop 8's biggest financial backers was the LDS church, just saying

Also, it's hard not to drag religion into the left/right conversation when the GOP is always using religion as part of their platform -- so it will come out in such discussion, whether you want it or not.

For the record, I'm greatly enjoying this.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:42 pm

Yes and one of their biggest voting demographics was minorities, just saying. Klaud, I'm not talking GOP I'm talking conservative vs liberal when I say left leaning vs right leaning. You keep equating GOP with conservative and there is certainly a conservative wing in that party, but it's not the religious part. The religious part is their own entity for both parties. This topic will never advance if you construe everything I say referencing conservative ideals as religious, because that's not what I'm saying. If you want, pick another label for it so we can move past this religious stuff.


I told Lieris I'd speak to that platform on some issues, because at times I vote for republicans and that apparently makes me stupid.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:51 pm

point taken.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Lieris » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:52 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Lieris wrote:I am sorry but I feel there is some serious cognitive dissonance required to identify as a conservative in America while also wanting to distance yourself from the GOP, Romney and the religious right. The way you try to rationalise it is very unconvincing. The liberal media, left wing intelligentsia mischaracterising conservatives conspiracy thing is real tinfoil hat stuff. I am fairly sure that Fox is happy to label its viewers as conservative.

Generally I think it's best to not identify as anything. I think people and politics are too complicated and too wide ranging for labels and your idea of what that label means might be very different to what other people think it means. These labels are a package deal with so much baggage, why be bogged down by them? I lean left on most issues but there are certain people on that side who I wouldn't want anyone to lump me with.

Ultimately like how my MP votes in the commons, all that matters is how you vote. Everything else is just talk. If you won't be voting GOP then great.


I frankly don't care whether you believe me or how you want to categorize me. I think the differences are night and day, but you don't so who cares, I'm not sure how it matters at the moment.

I won't be voting for Romney but I will probably be voting GOP for gov in my state and potentially other positions. Are you interested in engaging in the debate I offered?


I can't saying I am chomping at the bit to find out which bits of the GOP manifesto you disagree with, sorry. I don't know where the debate is in that. If you mean something else then let me know but generally I don't like to make time for drawn out internet discussions (not a dig at anyone, it's just something I avoid).
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Torquemada » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:28 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Now you could argue that Rush and others in the talk radio market are a problem, and I think that's a fair criticism but they are also largely marginalized too. Rush isn't taken very seriously for a guy that's on the radio a few hours everyday, but still those guys should be challenged a bit more on the conservative side, I can't disagree with that.


I'm actually kind of irritated at Rush right now. I had the "Adopt a Soldier" access to his website for like 3 years, including my time in Korea. Now that I'm back in a combat zone, he ended the program. Bullocks.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby aureon » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:36 pm

Thalia wrote:
aureon wrote:There is no democratic equivalent of Fox News.
It's called MSNBC.

Curiously, i followed the debates and comments on MSNBC. That passes for left-leaning in America? I think we can lend you a few communists.
Seeing around, i've seen MSNBC firmly declare "Obama has lost on his own fault" while Fox News, when Biden basically did what Romney did to Obama, minus a few lies (Actually my plan covers pre-existing conditions), all Fox News had to say was "Biden was rude".
I think MSNBC somewhat leans left, but not in a way comparable to how Fox leans right.

Taking an example right now:
I opened both sides, and found the first political issue both were covering. Didn't have to look very hard.
http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012 ... stops?lite
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/10 ... facturing/

MSNBC starts off with reporting word-for-word, then gets to comments:
According to the independent fact-checking website, that 2 million jobs lost number “is unrelated to currency manipulation. It is an International Trade Commission estimate of jobs that could be created if China enforced U.S. intellectual property rights.”

Asked about the accuracy of the claim, Ryan’s spokesman, Michael Steel, said “a lost job is a lost job.”

Which is the partisan-est claim of the article, and is factually correct.

Overall, it's hard to argue it tries to portray Ryan or Romney as enemies to the American interests. And we all know that "Romney shipped jobs to China" would've been an awfully easy line of attack.
I mean, it even includes a line such as " Following the town hall, Ryan and his family stopped by a local soup kitchen and helped wash dishes."

Meanwhile, the FOX article reports more or less the same facts, but without a majority of direct quotes, and comments quite extensively.

The title itself is pretty partisan, walking on unsubstantiated (unsubstantiated, not false) claims.
Ryan was also critical of Washington Republicans and Democrats alike for allowing the federal deficit to reach $16 trillion with 48 percent of the debt being owned by other countries, with China at the top.

This is a false, or at the very least misleading, since the debt is about $16T, owned in more or less equivalent thirds into US public, US agencies (Such as SS) and foreign entities.
China is effectively on top, but still owns about 20% of that third.
The share of the chinese in the US debt is so 6%. I think you'll agree the paragraph fails to convey this fact, and rather promotes a much starker view.

Analyzing the select quotes, which are pretty much the same across:
“The administration had its eighth chance to label China a currency manipulator,” Which isn't even a Ryan quote, but a Romney one.
“We need a strong manufacturing base in American if we want a strong middle class in America,”
“You don’t want to put your country in the position where you have to borrow all this money from another country to pay for your government. This compromises our sovereignty, it compromises our independence, its harming our economy and we need to put a stop to this. It's making – it's a huge problem we need to deal with.”
"We just wanted to come by and say thanks for doing what you're doing. This is what makes society go,"





The main difference is the debt-quip, and the handling of the "2 million job" thing. Which isn't related to what the RR ticket wants to do (punish china for being a currency manipulator, while the 2 million job claim is dependant to patent issues.)
MSNBC correctly notes this, albeit perhaps makes a big deal of it, while FOX conveniently passes, and adds some dubious claims and half-truths in the process.

If MSNBC is in the business of being liberal propaganda, they're terrible at it.
It leans left, but not in the extremes Fox does.
And that may strike me more strongly that it should, but atleast it doesn't paste "Fair&Balanced" everywhere on their logo.


edit: Ok, what the heck is "Bias alert on FOX?" O_o
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Paxen » Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:01 pm

Even though I share the view that the GOP has gone off the deep end...I don't agree that they're conservative.

The may be conservative in the sense that "haves try to defend why they should keep having and call it conservatism", but I'd call them ideologically Reactionary. If you think about it, they want to step back to the start of the 20th century. Curtailing women's rights, minority rights, putting gays back in the closet, going back to the laissez-faire capitalism of the late 19th/early 20th century...

The Dems are Conservative. They want to keep the current institutions, like Medicare, Civil Rights, the right to abortion and so on. They're not opposed to changing society, but they want to do it slowly. Gay marriage is the prime example here, this is not a quick change. It's been happening for 40 years or more, and they want to keep taking the slow steps. The GOP are the reactionaries screaming for a return to a time where gay men got arrested if they were caught having sex.
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