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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:00 pm

That's fair on paper but there are a couple of issues. First that the GOP and conservatives aren't the same thing. The GOP is generally more conservative than the Dems and so that's where most of the conservative support goes, but the GOP is held hostage by the religious right who isn't conservative at all.

The second issue is a little more nuanced, because conservatives don't get a fair say culturally. You go to school in elementary, primary, secondary, and high schools that typically lean to the left, and then there's college which is pretty universally far left. Then there's the mainstream media and the cultural media (hollywood) in which conservatives get almost no say and their opinions are not portrayed accurately, the only conservative strong hold is talk radio.

Now you could argue that Rush and others in the talk radio market are a problem, and I think that's a fair criticism but they are also largely marginalized too. Rush isn't taken very seriously for a guy that's on the radio a few hours everyday, but still those guys should be challenged a bit more on the conservative side, I can't disagree with that.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:04 pm

Schools, specially public schools, are supposed to be secular in the first place -- even if people want to change that -- in fact, I'd say they're not secular enough. And just because something is secular, does not mean it's left-leaning.

Also, if you're saying the GOP is held hostage by the religious, then do something about it.

And again, I still feel a bunch of GOP party members go rank-n-file on the party's political platform even if its against their benefit... I still have no idea why the log cabin republicans give any support to the party when in their platform say they want to prevent them from being married, adopt kids and whatnot.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Sagara » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:10 pm

I'm not from the U.S. so I'll admit to ignorance, but when I hear "it's because X Y and Z don't give us a fair chance and are biased!" I can't help but hear "It's those X Y and Z's fault, not ours that people don't accept we're RIGHT." It denigrates the target group as less than onself.

I'd say if the GOP doesn't get a fair say culturally, maybe that's because they need to get on line with the culture, in their own, republican way.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Lieris » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:12 pm

Fridmarr wrote:In fairness, I think notion that "your politics is something we read about to feel better about ours" is probably a two way street, but that's just the homer in everyone.


No really, yours really is that messed up and anyone who does vote republican really is that stupid and so utterly incapable of getting over party loyalty that they will actively vote against their own interests.

First that the GOP and conservatives aren't the same thing. The GOP is generally more conservative than the Dems and so that's where most of the conservative support goes, but the GOP is held hostage by the religious right who isn't conservative at all.


Please explain this. The GOP (and the religious right) are the dictionary definition of conservative.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:14 pm

or maybe they need the moderates to actually dictate the party platform and put a lid on the more radical members...

I'll be honest... I'm right-leaning on certain issues, like immigration and guns, but I prefer to cast my votes for the dems more often than not as whatever they push tend to personally harm me the less than the alternative.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:16 pm

Lieris wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:In fairness, I think notion that "your politics is something we read about to feel better about ours" is probably a two way street, but that's just the homer in everyone.


No really, yours really is that messed up and anyone who does vote republican really is that stupid and so utterly incapable of getting over party loyalty that they will actively vote against their own interests.

First that the GOP and conservatives aren't the same thing. The GOP is generally more conservative than the Dems and so that's where most of the conservative support goes, but the GOP is held hostage by the religious right who isn't conservative at all.


Please explain this. The GOP (and the religious right) are the dictionary definition of conservative.


That's way harsh and I would dare to say out of line. I agree that I dont understand Log Cabin Republicans, but that line seems out of line.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Lieris » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:23 pm

Sometimes you need to call a spade, a spade.

The GOP is the nasty party that hates women, ethnic minorities, non-christians, disabled people, LGBT people, immigrants, people on benefits etc. Anyone who votes for that shower is not a compassionate human being, or is just plain stupid for voting in the interests of the ruling elite.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:31 pm

The only reason why I dont entirely agree with you is that I value women's rights and lgbt rights above guns and immigration, which is why I vote predominately Dem over GOP, even if voting for dems does not benefit some of my interests. Your statement seems to be a pretty blanket statement encompassing each and every single republican voter, which is not entirely fair, since it leaves no room for discussion, and this is not what we're about, I think.

Stop making me defend the GOP! *shakes fist*

I'd say that some GOP groups vote that way using this logic. I just happen to not understand it when it comes to LGBT rights as part of the GOP platform, if you're LGBT, you're pretty much subhuman and should not enjoy the rights everyone else enjoys just because you like to be butt buddies with someone else.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:24 pm

...I'm not even sure how to address some of this, some of it is just soo far from what I believe, I'm genuinely sad about what I'm being accused of. That said, I am going to respond in a way to attempt to advance the discussion and hopefully provide a learning experience for both sides.

Klaudandus wrote:Schools, specially public schools, are supposed to be secular in the first place -- even if people want to change that -- in fact, I'd say they're not secular enough. And just because something is secular, does not mean it's left-leaning.
I want to thank you for this comment, because nothing I say could capture how misled people are about conservatives better than this comment. Left and right isn't a religious thing it somewhat amazes me that that was your reaction. Religious people follow a pretty broad spectrum of politics, the polling on some of those issues would probably surprise you a bit on how they break down across parties.

High schools and below are more neutral than colleges, but they are still staffed by left leaning union groups, who are also government employees, and administered by higher level government employees who tend to have a pro government lean. Colleges, according to various polls have staff with anywhere between 60-90% membership in left leaning groups.

Klaudandu wrote:Also, if you're saying the GOP is held hostage by the religious, then do something about it.
Progress is being made. I don't have a problem with religious people, but I do disagree with many of the religious based views of the GOP. Not all republicans buy into them, but enough do because that's still a significant voter block, but as a whole the impact of religion is degrading slowly in many political areas. It would help if the moderates got honest coverage and everything GOP wasn't lumped into the religious right argument.

Sagara wrote:I'm not from the U.S. so I'll admit to ignorance, but when I hear "it's because X Y and Z don't give us a fair chance and are biased!" I can't help but hear "It's those X Y and Z's fault, not ours that people don't accept we're RIGHT." It denigrates the target group as less than onself.

I'd say if the GOP doesn't get a fair say culturally, maybe that's because they need to get on line with the culture, in their own, republican way.

No, I'm not blaming the media for people not accepting that conservatives are right, I blame the media for not properly conveying the conservative argument. If I say 2 + 2 is 4, and the media reports that I said 2 + 2 is 5, and so everyone thinks I'm an idiot, how is that my fault? A few pages back Klaud linked an article that made a translation of one of Romney's answers in an interview to suggest that teachers aren't people politically but that corporations are. Read it and then read my retort and also Brekkie's retort (and I don't think I'd call Brekkie a republican) and I think it's incredibly clear what I'm talking about, and that my little example I just gave isn't even unfair.

Lieris wrote:The GOP is the nasty party that hates women, ethnic minorities, non-christians, disabled people, LGBT people, immigrants, people on benefits etc. Anyone who votes for that shower is not a compassionate human being, or is just plain stupid for voting in the interests of the ruling elite.
Though given the vitriol of this comment, I'm not sure discourse would do much good, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

This is somewhat difficult because I'm not a republican and won't be voting for Romney, but I've definitely voted for more republicans than democrats in the past, so I think I'd fall under the group of people that you'd consider stupid.

So I'll bite. Let's start with your first claim. Please explain how I hate women.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Lieris » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:08 pm

Klaudandus wrote:The only reason why I dont entirely agree with you is that I value women's rights and lgbt rights above guns and immigration, which is why I vote predominately Dem over GOP, even if voting for dems does not benefit some of my interests. Your statement seems to be a pretty blanket statement encompassing each and every single republican voter, which is not entirely fair, since it leaves no room for discussion, and this is not what we're about, I think.


If the party I have typically voted for (FWIW I will be voting differently next election but for other reasons) had the sheer hatred the GOP have for anyone who isn't a white straight christian upper middle class male I would switch allegiances in a heartbeat. These aren't simple disagreements over economics or the size of government, these people are openly hostile to the concepts of equality and civil rights. If someone chooses to ignore that just because they like guns or whatever and vote republican anyway, they are actively complicit in attacking women and minorities so please cut the happy clappy stuff and don't you tell me I am out of line. I have friends in the US who are deeply effected by this stuff so I won't mince my words.

Fridmarr wrote:So I'll bite. Let's start with your first claim.


No first address this please:

The GOP (and religious right) are the dictionary definition of conservative.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:16 pm

The dictionary definition, as in wanting to stick with existing conditions/institutions? Meh not really, I don't think that's a political ideology for anyone really, though I would agree that they are more like that than liberals. That said they want to change liberal institutions as much as liberals want to change conservative institutions.

Lets just stick with the GOP platform (it's certainly heavily influenced by the religious right), I'll mention where I disagree with it and won't hold you unfairly to that, but I don't know how to find a better starting point and we need something.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:30 pm

Lieris wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:The only reason why I dont entirely agree with you is that I value women's rights and lgbt rights above guns and immigration, which is why I vote predominately Dem over GOP, even if voting for dems does not benefit some of my interests. Your statement seems to be a pretty blanket statement encompassing each and every single republican voter, which is not entirely fair, since it leaves no room for discussion, and this is not what we're about, I think.


If the party I have typically voted for (FWIW I will be voting differently next election but for other reasons) had the sheer hatred the GOP have for anyone who isn't a white straight christian upper middle class male I would switch allegiances in a heartbeat. These aren't simple disagreements over economics or the size of government, these people are openly hostile to the concepts of equality and civil rights. If someone chooses to ignore that just because they like guns or whatever and vote republican anyway, they are actively complicit in attacking women and minorities so please cut the happy clappy stuff and don't you tell me I am out of line. I have friends in the US who are deeply effected by this stuff so I won't mince my words.


I think you should know by now that I'm on your side. I'm very pro-choice and pro-lgbt to the point I get mistaken for gay/bi more often than not. I just don't like to lower the discussion into name-calling and blanket a whole 50% of the country stupid, as much as I would like to.

I prefer to leave my scorn to utterly stupid political figures. XD
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Re: Election 2012

Postby aureon » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:35 pm

Fridmarr wrote:No, if you want to argue something specific that's fine. If you literally want to call them evil and sum it up in something as stupid as FUCK YOU I GOT MINE, then no that's not reasonable discourse. It's merely hatemongering of the closed minded, and we don't have a place for that here.

Believe me, there's plenty of those bits available from mainstream democratic politicians, and they'll get their run on talk radio which seems to be dominated by the right, but on most other platforms they'll get no traction.

Economically, you seem to be munging what provides the most "stimulus" with more sound long term economic policies. You can't tax yourself to prosperity, and neither can you cut taxes to prosperity. Taxes aren't complicated, there's a price point at which they are effective, like pretty much everything else. And if you want to argue that Obama has a better grasp on that than Romney, that's great your input is welcome.


First and foremost:
I've long heard the "education leans left" talking point, but not really ever gotten it explained. Please elaborate. What's "leaning liberal"? Encouraging drug use? Redistribution of wealth?
What issues being teached would mean that "education leans left" from your (and if you can provide, the generally accepted conservative view, if there's one?)
This is not a bait question or anything, i'm genuinely curious about the state of this in America, since i have hardly ever detected political orientation bias in schools in Italy (apart of upper-class private schools being generally right-leaning, but that's a separate italian issue)

There is no rage at conservatives in there. The dismay is directed to the GOP in general, and to the RR ticket in specific. You may not want to recognize it, but that is how the GOP now looks and speaks on a national level: It's no longer Eistenhower's party. Hell, it's no longer Reagan's party either, which wasn't any good to begin with.
There are no real critics moved to you, or to conservativism. There are critics moved to the GOP and to Romney/Ryan.

There is no democratic equivalent of Fox News.
There is no democratic equivalent of Ayn Rand.
There is no democratic equivalent of Creationism.


Certain issues are still somewhat legitimate, even if would get jumped on in basically the rest of the world (Guns, somewhat Immigration, drug-controlling, emphasis on security, minimization of taxes against benefits, and so on)
Others, though... Creationism in schools? Sexual-orientation discrimination? Dogwhistle racism? And the most important of them all.. eliminating capital gains tax?
The opposite from the left would be:
Outlawing religious education wholesale and teaching philosophical discussions aimed at convincing students of the non-existance of god
Discrimination against white straight males
Eliminating labor taxes
And so on.
But no left in the western world is advocating such extreme positions.


Please note that in "sums up in FYGM" i was NOT referring to conservatives as a whole but to the Romney/Ryan ticket positions.

To remember the statement that spawned this:
As an european, it's hard to not wonder how the heck republicans still get more than 5% of the vote, let alone 50%. Romney/Ryan are cartoonishly evil, hold no real positions but FUCK YOU, GOT MINE, and so on.

To renact now that we've straightened things a bit: You are a conservative, and you are not voting Romney. So you probably acknowledge some very major flaw in them.
I've searched far and wide for their positions, but apart of two things, Romney seems to have said anything and the diametral opposite of anything.
That "thing" is "20% tax cut for everyone, which will be paid by closing loopholes."
To date, the campaign has been unable to specify a single loophole being closed, and the total cost of such a cut (Which is a 7-point drop for the top bracket, from 35 to 28, and a 2 point drop for the lowest bracket, from 10 to 8), and closing every single loophole for the 250k+ earners (Which Ryan claims will be the sole loopholes eliminated) wouldn't cover even half of the projected cost.

The other position is voucherizing medicare/medicaid, which if polls tell the truth, is more or less universally opposed.

I think I have substantial reasons to categorize the Romney/Ryan plan as "Ridiculous". They're campaigning on:
Thin Air (http://www.roboromney.com/ provides videoclips of the aforementioned no-substance)
A widely unpopular and inefficient medical plan
A mathematically impossible tax plan
A through ability to offend any state Romney visit

and what else?
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:38 pm

Fridmarr wrote:High schools and below are more neutral than colleges, but they are still staffed by left leaning union groups, who are also government employees, and administered by higher level government employees who tend to have a pro government lean. Colleges, according to various polls have staff with anywhere between 60-90% membership in left leaning groups.


I could argue that the only reason why so many colleges are left-leaning is because non-religious universities outnumber religious universities by a far margin.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:00 pm

Religion is mostly irrelevant to left or right. I'm not sure why so many of your arguments are drawn to that. You can make an argument somewhat about parties, but not the left/right spectrum.

For both you and Aureon. Below college it's much less because these topics aren't as exposed in the curriculum. Reading, writing, Math, science* aren't generally left or right favoring topics. However, there are civil studies classes and other classes along those lines. As I said, schools are generally state run, they are pro government growth with many of their employees. They are unionized (in some places through force) through a very partisan union. That tends to come out in the classroom. I don't think it's really a problem though, just because the topics in general are not traditional high school and below fodder.

There is absolutely a counter to Fox News, and that is MSNBC and I don't think that MSNBC would argue that they aren't. But I'd also argue that the rest of the media trends left, and a lot of journalists have accepted that and attempted to justify it, but generally not deny it. Ayn Rand? I don't think many people even know who she is, but wouldn't pretty much all of hollywood be a counter, certainly folks like Michael Moore?

I actually understand the GOP logic of the capital gains tax issue because of how our tax system works, but I don't agree with them because I think it undermines the system and ultimately everything is repeatedly taxed.

Obama, by the way has done the exact same thing on the whole loophole thing with the tax system. NPR did a story on it just last week, so you can probably find it. Though I think calling some of these deductions loopholes is disingenuous. I'm certainly for phasing them out though neither candidate has the guts to say that even though that's what they both want.

*About science, because I know what the reaction to that is going to be. I don't consider teaching the accepted theories of evolution or environmentalism to be left leaning. I don't agree with the GOP for the most part on those topics, neither do many conservatives. Though there certainly have been cases I think where particularly on environmentalism, they've gone a bit overboard.
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