What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Torquemada » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:00 am

Quick, delete this thread before they notice. /sarcasm
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Nooska » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:02 am

They need to make up their mind on how we are supposed to work tanking wise - either this should stay (maybe a little adjustment) or they need to make SoT/SoR the tanking seals for single/multitarget.

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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Koatanga » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:49 pm

Yeah can we lock/delete this thread? I am doing ridiculous healing numbers and adds pickup is beyond easy, plus I don't really feel a DPS nerf. I want to bronze this patch and keep it on my mantle. I am quite often leading both damage done and healing done by pretty fair margins.

Soon we will see that SoI generates no threat and our healing/shielding abilities no longer scale with Vengeance. I really don't want that day to come.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Darielle » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:08 pm

Healing/Shielding scaling with Vengeance was one of the entire points of the Vengeance change.

That said, to be fair:
"For maximum survivability, Protection Paladins are intended to use Seal of Insight, since it provides a buff to their self-healing, and also provides a significant self-heal on their melee in combination with Vengeance. "

not that SoI/BH was meant to generate threat that trivialises things.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Egtheridon » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:07 pm

There are some pretty nice advantages to using seal of insight in raiding situations, i did stone dogs 10 man and in total i healed 28k hps compared to my healers 48/47 about 5k healing was from GotBH. I didn't use sacred shield and opted for selfless to heal off tank who was taking massive damage. The threat advantage aside a lot of the other tanks(dks/warriors/monks) when i looked at some top parses were doing similar healing, when i don't use selfless healer my healing is about 22k hps on that fight. It would seem the main problem is the threat portion but i hope that the healing stays the same. My gear is pretty behind so I'm probably not doing the best dps i got a lot of upgrades this last day but you can see my WoL. Right now i have to say as prot this is the most fun I've had playing.


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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Extermi » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:53 pm

I can second the fun part. Since the light judgement back in the days, I was missing some uniqueness in being a Paladin tank. Now that my attacks heal my comrades, it feels a bit special and sound. I really love playing Paladin right now. Plus, the self-healing does help if healers are occupied / moving, so its not "overheal" all the time but only in steady state.

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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:43 am

OK, I have to admit - despite the fact that I hate SoI tanking in concept, and would much rather have trusty old SoT back - SoI tanking is growing on me. I wish the DPS to HPS trade-off were more significant, to make SoT a stronger choice. As it is, it's just too weak to seriously consider unless we're looking at very stringent DPS checks. But tanking with SoI isn't too bad given the benefits.

One thing I wish is that seals were off-GCD though. As it stands, losing a GCD to swap from SoI to SoT is likely a larger DPS loss than keeping SoI and using whichever filler we would have used over short periods. Roughly guessing based on numbers, the break-even point is going to be around 15 seconds of DPS time, give or take. So we'd need to be swapping for at least 30+ seconds to make it worth bothering with (assuming we're swapping seals back at the end).
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Nooska » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:14 pm

Doe steh nerf to SoT/censure and SoI being default tanking seal, result in a re-evaluation of GoIT?
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Fetzie » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:53 pm

Nooska wrote:Doe steh nerf to SoT/censure and SoI being default tanking seal, result in a re-evaluation of GoIT?


It was a dps loss before the nerf, don't see how it would be any different now that SoT/censure has been nerfed by ~80%
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Kihra » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:08 pm

Keep in mind that SoI is trying to make up for the fact that we take so much more damage than other tanks. For example, I took on the order of 46% more damage than my bear co-tank on 25N Will of the Emperor last night, but that gap was almost entirely closed by Seal of Insight and Sacred Shield. SoI looks insanely great until you realize that you're getting hit way harder and avoiding less than other tanks. It seems pretty balanced to me.

Making it do no threat would be fine, but I think its healing output is just fine.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:35 pm

Whoa that sounds like a really bad trade-off. Is that damage intake disparity the exception or the rule?
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Treck » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:51 pm

That is really not at all the numbers ive encountered.
Ive seen we take maybe slightly more damage than monks, and pretty equal to warriors.
Druids should take less damage i guess with so high dodge, but they are instable to heal.
Also a fight like Will of the Emperor is a fight where druids are really good in terms of taking less damage due to the limited time the bosses even hit you.
And Im assuming both of you did a fairly good job a dodging the strikes, aka avoiding armor debuffs?
But like Fridmarr says, if the norm is we take almost 50% more damage but makes up for it with SoI, its a very bad trade-off indeed.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Kihra » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:50 pm

Treck wrote:Also a fight like Will of the Emperor is a fight where druids are really good in terms of taking less damage due to the limited time the bosses even hit you.


Yes, that is about as large as the swing gets, and you're right that druids do very well on it. My high level point is just that Seal of Insight is (to me at least) obviously the intended tanking seal, and that our tanking has been designed with that self-healing in mind. I don't think they ever intended for us to use Seal of Truth on progression. I could see from Censure being my top damage source in beta raids (especially with the fact that you can keep it up on two targets, e.g., Stone Guard) that it was going to get nerfed.

Treck wrote:And Im assuming both of you did a fairly good job a dodging the strikes, aka avoiding armor debuffs?\


Yes, we both got #1 parses in our respective classes. :)

Treck wrote:But like Fridmarr says, if the norm is we take almost 50% more damage but makes up for it with SoI, its a very bad trade-off indeed.


Note I said Sacred Shield as well as Seal of Insight, so it's not *that* bad.

As you rightfully point out, Will of the Emperor is probably a more extreme case than other fights. It is just a good basis for comparison since the two tanks are doing the exact same thing and have approximately equal Vengeance. Since both my co-tank and I danced correctly, we were able to really take a look at the damage numbers. You make a very good point about how well a druid can do with avoidance though during that fight, and so that makes a big difference.

I could probably have done less damage and held SotR in reserve as well for non-dance times, so I could have taken less damage at the cost of dealing less damage (a trade-off I didn't have to make on normal mode).
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Sanctity » Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:48 pm

So I was doing some AoE farming in dread wastes for motes of harmony and I noticed that, especially on larger pulls, I was self healing for an absurd amount without doing anything in particular. On further investigation I'm pretty sure that hammer of the righteous can cause a SoI proc for each target hit and also (when using it in dread wastes) a battle hymn proc (each proc being a heal for 1% of max health).

This is possibly not intended and is sure as hell isn't balanced with the hymn, when a guildy was there helping me pull more I had 20 mobs on me and as soon as one died to enable battle hymn each HotR was healing me for 25% of my health. As a side note I'm in love with the blade turning augment - being as how it dealt 50% of all my damage in that farming session.

Battle Hymn: http://www.wowdb.com/spells/123219-battle-hymn
Iron Mantid (makes AoE farming viable/fun): http://www.wowdb.com/spells/124529-iron-mantid

Here's a screenshot of my combat log to demonstrate: http://i.imgur.com/MxQBH.jpg

Thoughts?

Also on the topic of SoI: it makes having 1 tank 4 dps for heroics easy, just bring a ele shaman or balance druid with healing OS for insurance.

EDIT: also seems that Holy Wrath procs Battle Hymn (but not SoI) for each target hit.
Last edited by Sanctity on Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Fetzie » Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:48 pm

Yes, HotR can proc SoI on each splash. And it is bloody awesome getting a 50-60k heal every 4.5 seconds when bombing a lot of mobs.
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