What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

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What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Chronos » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:52 pm

What seal should we use? SOT dmg nerfed by 80%, SoR > SoT for dmg output now? Not sure if the tooltip reflects the change yet or not, don't remember what it used to be. Not really wanting to use SoI.

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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Torquemada » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:38 pm

Short version via TheckMath(TM): SoT is a better single target damage seal. SoR doesn't pull ahead until you're at 3+ mobs, and then, only if you can't find a way to stack Censure on all 3+ of them. For more info, click here: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32805&start=90#p742518.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Extermi » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:37 am

My recommendation:

1) Use SoL (just eat it *g*)
2) Equip Battle Healer Glyph
3) Top the healing charts in Heroics ;-)

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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Winkle » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:22 am

Seal of Light also seems to generate considerably more threat than SoT. I thought healing threat was reduced by 90% some time ago but i definitely noticed a considerable change to my threat when i switched mid way through a MV run.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:33 am

Extermi wrote:My recommendation:

1) Use SoL (just eat it *g*)
2) Equip Battle Healer Glyph
3) Top the healing charts in Heroics ;-)

Extermi

Battle Healer is good, but it's not that good. I did notice that I was worth about half a healer in the heroics I did last night though, which is pretty impressive. If your healer can put up some DoTs or something with those spare GCDs, it might be a net DPS gain for the group in challenge modes.

Winkle wrote:Seal of Light also seems to generate considerably more threat than SoT. I thought healing threat was reduced by 90% some time ago but i definitely noticed a considerable change to my threat when i switched mid way through a MV run.

It probably does now. If I recall correctly, healing threat is ~50% for most abilities (paging Dr. Jere?). Or 25%. Even at 25%, SoI will out-threat SoT+Censure. It seems like the Battle Healer glyph grants threat too. On Darkmaster Gandling last night, doing the achievement, I literally had to do nothing to pull the adds off of my healer. Battle Healer + SoI was doing enough threat that they just came straight to me.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:44 am

theckhd wrote:
Winkle wrote:Seal of Light also seems to generate considerably more threat than SoT. I thought healing threat was reduced by 90% some time ago but i definitely noticed a considerable change to my threat when i switched mid way through a MV run.

It probably does now. If I recall correctly, healing threat is ~50% for most abilities (paging Dr. Jere?). Or 25%. Even at 25%, SoI will out-threat SoT+Censure. It seems like the Battle Healer glyph grants threat too. On Darkmaster Gandling last night, doing the achievement, I literally had to do nothing to pull the adds off of my healer. Battle Healer + SoI was doing enough threat that they just came straight to me.


Now this is the kind of stupid side-effects that is

a) totally awesome
b) nerfed to Hell and certainly never back
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:54 am

theckhd wrote:Battle Healer is good, but it's not that good. I did notice that I was worth about half a healer in the heroics I did last night though, which is pretty impressive. If your healer can put up some DoTs or something with those spare GCDs, it might be a net DPS gain for the group in challenge modes.

The groups running Challenge Mode golds atm are mostly using 4 dps groups, so any self healing like that is an advantage.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby jere » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:04 am

I can't check my notes at the moment cause it is blocked from here, but I believe SoI heals were at 50% (basically all heals but a select few were 50% and those select few were 0%...though now Lights Hammer is 25%, but I think that is a bug).

I'll check my posting at Tankspot when I get home today.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:18 am

theckhd wrote:On Darkmaster Gandling last night, doing the achievement, I literally had to do nothing to pull the adds off of my healer. Battle Healer + SoI was doing enough threat that they just came straight to me.

Interesting implication of this: Using SoI+GoBH means never having to worry about adds on the healer. You will automatically generate enough threat to pull them off a healer just by attacking. Completely trivializes the "pick up new adds" mechanic.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:41 am

jere wrote:I can't check my notes at the moment cause it is blocked from here, but I believe SoI heals were at 50% (basically all heals but a select few were 50% and those select few were 0%...though now Lights Hammer is 25%, but I think that is a bug).

I'll check my posting at Tankspot when I get home today.


jere@tankspot wrote:
Code: Select all
SoI Healing      heal*2.50     heal*0.50
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby jere » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:19 am

So then yeah, a 50% modifier (or 250% if you lump it with RF). Thanks Pyrea.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Extermi » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:24 am

theckhd wrote:Interesting implication of this: Using SoI+GoBH means never having to worry about adds on the healer. You will automatically generate enough threat to pull them off a healer just by attacking. Completely trivializes the "pick up new adds" mechanic.


So no more need for Warlocks one can offheal like in the SSC days ;-)

Honestly, this is really strong, and probably will see a nerf once exploited. This is like a perma warbanner pointing directly to the tank.

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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:35 am

Well if I'm understanding this all correctly, it is another indication that Insight was not meant to be the primary taking seal. They have been through this healing mechanic and the problematic threat generation before with judgement of light.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:38 am

Sounds a lot like it. Calling it now (and BOY are they going to eat flak for that):

SoI no longer generates threat for Protection Paladin.

Primary tanking seal my plot.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby angelflavor » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:47 am

Sagara wrote:Sounds a lot like it. Calling it now (and BOY are they going to eat flak for that):

SoI no longer generates threat for Protection Paladin.

Primary tanking seal my plot.


*face palm* O how I wish this wasn't going to be true, but I feel it coming.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Torquemada » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:00 am

Quick, delete this thread before they notice. /sarcasm
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Nooska » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:02 am

They need to make up their mind on how we are supposed to work tanking wise - either this should stay (maybe a little adjustment) or they need to make SoT/SoR the tanking seals for single/multitarget.

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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Koatanga » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:49 pm

Yeah can we lock/delete this thread? I am doing ridiculous healing numbers and adds pickup is beyond easy, plus I don't really feel a DPS nerf. I want to bronze this patch and keep it on my mantle. I am quite often leading both damage done and healing done by pretty fair margins.

Soon we will see that SoI generates no threat and our healing/shielding abilities no longer scale with Vengeance. I really don't want that day to come.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Darielle » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:08 pm

Healing/Shielding scaling with Vengeance was one of the entire points of the Vengeance change.

That said, to be fair:
"For maximum survivability, Protection Paladins are intended to use Seal of Insight, since it provides a buff to their self-healing, and also provides a significant self-heal on their melee in combination with Vengeance. "

not that SoI/BH was meant to generate threat that trivialises things.
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Egtheridon » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:07 pm

There are some pretty nice advantages to using seal of insight in raiding situations, i did stone dogs 10 man and in total i healed 28k hps compared to my healers 48/47 about 5k healing was from GotBH. I didn't use sacred shield and opted for selfless to heal off tank who was taking massive damage. The threat advantage aside a lot of the other tanks(dks/warriors/monks) when i looked at some top parses were doing similar healing, when i don't use selfless healer my healing is about 22k hps on that fight. It would seem the main problem is the threat portion but i hope that the healing stays the same. My gear is pretty behind so I'm probably not doing the best dps i got a lot of upgrades this last day but you can see my WoL. Right now i have to say as prot this is the most fun I've had playing.


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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Extermi » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:53 pm

I can second the fun part. Since the light judgement back in the days, I was missing some uniqueness in being a Paladin tank. Now that my attacks heal my comrades, it feels a bit special and sound. I really love playing Paladin right now. Plus, the self-healing does help if healers are occupied / moving, so its not "overheal" all the time but only in steady state.

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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:43 am

OK, I have to admit - despite the fact that I hate SoI tanking in concept, and would much rather have trusty old SoT back - SoI tanking is growing on me. I wish the DPS to HPS trade-off were more significant, to make SoT a stronger choice. As it is, it's just too weak to seriously consider unless we're looking at very stringent DPS checks. But tanking with SoI isn't too bad given the benefits.

One thing I wish is that seals were off-GCD though. As it stands, losing a GCD to swap from SoI to SoT is likely a larger DPS loss than keeping SoI and using whichever filler we would have used over short periods. Roughly guessing based on numbers, the break-even point is going to be around 15 seconds of DPS time, give or take. So we'd need to be swapping for at least 30+ seconds to make it worth bothering with (assuming we're swapping seals back at the end).
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Nooska » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:14 pm

Doe steh nerf to SoT/censure and SoI being default tanking seal, result in a re-evaluation of GoIT?
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Fetzie » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:53 pm

Nooska wrote:Doe steh nerf to SoT/censure and SoI being default tanking seal, result in a re-evaluation of GoIT?


It was a dps loss before the nerf, don't see how it would be any different now that SoT/censure has been nerfed by ~80%
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Re: What seal with the 10.3.12 hotfix?

Postby Kihra » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:08 pm

Keep in mind that SoI is trying to make up for the fact that we take so much more damage than other tanks. For example, I took on the order of 46% more damage than my bear co-tank on 25N Will of the Emperor last night, but that gap was almost entirely closed by Seal of Insight and Sacred Shield. SoI looks insanely great until you realize that you're getting hit way harder and avoiding less than other tanks. It seems pretty balanced to me.

Making it do no threat would be fine, but I think its healing output is just fine.
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