A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:31 pm

Jere's LH data: w/o SoI, w/SoI

Both show a healing range of 5784-6502; thus LH is not affected by SoI.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6205
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby jere » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:29 am

Sorry I wasn't able to get to it before launch Theck. With the baby being sick and my sister's wedding 12 hours away, I was just too tired to do anything when I got home and had time.
Image
User avatar
jere
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 5:12 pm

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Fetzie » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:41 pm

Hotfixes that just went in:

One of our goals with our active mitigation tanking model is that you have opportunities to trade significant survivability for more damage when maximum survivability isn’t required. For example, a Warrior could opt to use their rage for Heroic Strike instead of Shield Block or Shield Barrier. This damage gain is intended to be relatively small, and not worth the loss in survivability when actively tanking.

However, for Protection Paladins, this trade-off was much too lucrative. For maximum survivability, Protection Paladins are intended to use Seal of Insight, since it provides a buff to their self-healing, and also provides a significant self-heal on their melee in combination with Vengeance. Unfortunately, when using Seal of Insight, their damage was too low compared to the other tanks. When using Seal of Truth, their damage was too high. So, we’ve increased Protection Paladin damage in general to compensate for Seal of Insight’s relatively low output, while simultaneously reducing the damage of Seal of Truth to bring it into line.

Holy Wrath now deals 100% more damage.
Avenger's Shield now deals 50% more damage.
Seal of Truth and Censure now deal 80% less damage for Protection Paladins only.


http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2385 ... hot-fixes/
Fetzie | Protection Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2019
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:49 pm

Ugh. Seriously, fuck Seal of Insight tanking.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6205
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Fenris » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:00 pm

theckhd wrote:Ugh. Seriously, fuck Seal of Insight tanking.

That was the plan all along,we just didn't catch it

Nor did anyone else


Yeah,totally true....


















BUT looking at the bright side,glyph of the battle healer now looks really good compared to before...


...


....sigh
ImageImage
ImageImage
User avatar
Fenris
 
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:51 am
Location: Italy

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:10 am

theckhd wrote:Ugh. Seriously, fuck Seal of Insight tanking.


It would be nice to have you show up at that thread.


I mean... did we ever receive the memo on SoI being our tanking seal?
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Fetzie » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:23 am

Pyrea wrote:The following attacks proc Battle Healer:

Melee Swing (obviously)
Crusader Strike
Hammer of the righteous (also splash damage effect)
Shield of the Righteous

Judgement, Avenger's Shield, Holy Wrath, Consecrate and Hammer of Wrath do NOT proc Battle Healer.

Using the crude, yet effective method of standing at a training dummy and seeing what makes a green number appear over a city guard.
Fetzie | Protection Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2019
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:27 am

If anyone has time, could I get some updated logs for AS, Holy Wrath, and SoT/Censure? Usual method: write down AP and SP, melee a dummy (any level) with SoT active and using AS/HW on cooldown. Repeat for 2 or 3 different gear sets (Naked, fully geared, and one or two somewhere in-between).
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6205
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:40 am

I was planning to do that once I get home.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Fetzie » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:10 am

theckhd wrote:If anyone has time, could I get some updated logs for AS, Holy Wrath, and SoT/Censure? Usual method: write down AP and SP, melee a dummy (any level) with SoT active and using AS/HW on cooldown. Repeat for 2 or 3 different gear sets (Naked, fully geared, and one or two somewhere in-between).


I can do that.

with full gear equipped
Damage 7354-11166
3563 dps
15774 AP
7887 SP
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ykaxrbdyp2osq2l6/

naked with white vendor weapon and shield:
damage: 105-115
49.98 dps
602 AP
301 SP
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/072s1rtbr37p3167/
Fetzie | Protection Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2019
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:36 am

Did you have focused shield glyphed?
<edit> And are those damage values you've given the weapon's tooltip damage or your character sheet damage?
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6205
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Fetzie » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:28 am

Character sheet damage, with focused shield glyphed.

weapon used for the naked test was http://www.wowhead.com/item=851
weapon used for the non-naked test was http://www.wowhead.com/item=81061
Fetzie | Protection Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2019
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:42 am

Got a question, do you want us to use the 1.6 white weapons normally used for testing?
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:43 am

My own data:
15868 AP
8512 AP
2052 AP
All using Maki's Mashing Mace

AS seems consistent with a flat 1.5x boost to both base and AP scaling, but since there's a bit of a range and my data set is limited, I"m going to wait for more data to fine tune it. For now we'll assume they just multiplied everything by 1.5.

Holy Wrath's base damage didn't change, but the SP scaling was doubled (was 0.91*SP, is now 0.91*AP) :
Code: Select all
General model:
     f(x) = a*x+b
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
       a =        0.91  (0.9099, 0.9101)
       b =        4300  (4300, 4301)

Goodness of fit:
  SSE: 0.3593
  R-square: 1
  Adjusted R-square: 1
  RMSE: 0.3461


Censure's formula is consistent with an 80% nerf (was 107+0.094*SP per stack, is now 107+0.094*SP total for all 5 stacks):
Code: Select all
General model:
     f(x) = a*x+b
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
       a =     0.09404  (0.09392, 0.09415)
       b =       106.6  (106, 107.3)

Goodness of fit:
  SSE: 0.206
  R-square: 1
  Adjusted R-square: 1
  RMSE: 0.262


It looks like SoT was reduced from 12% weapon damage to 2.5%, which is only a 79.17% nerf instead of an 80% one!
Code: Select all
General model:
     f(x) = a*x
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
       a =     0.02449  (0.02385, 0.02512)

Goodness of fit:
  SSE: 6.749
  R-square: 0.9964
  Adjusted R-square: 0.9964
  RMSE: 1.837
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6205
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:45 am

Klaudandus wrote:Got a question, do you want us to use the 1.6 white weapons normally used for testing?

I think I have SoT down now, so it probably doesn't matter about the weapon. But it can't hurt to stick with the 1.6 white weapon that has a narrow damage range.

I mostly need AS data now, the rest seem fairly well-characterized.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6205
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:48 am

theckhd wrote:It looks like SoT was reduced from 12% weapon damage to 2.5%, which is only a 79.17% nerf instead of an 80% one!


Good! I feel so much better now that I know that I am 0.83% less nerfed than Blizz said I was gonna be! :P
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:53 pm

Pyrea wrote:
Pyrea wrote:The following attacks proc Battle Healer:

Melee Swing (obviously)
Crusader Strike
Hammer of the righteous (also splash damage effect)
Shield of the Righteous

Judgement, Avenger's Shield, Holy Wrath, Consecrate and Hammer of Wrath do NOT proc Battle Healer.

Using the crude, yet effective method of standing at a training dummy and seeing what makes a green number appear over a city guard.

Was it 100% proc chance?
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6205
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Fetzie » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:25 pm

Looked like it. I only hit the dummy for a minute or so, but the abilities that caused the heal appeared to do so every time. I fired off HW, Cons, AS and J from outside melee range/with my back turned to eliminate the chance of mistaking a melee swing proc for an ability proc. The ShoR, CS and HotR procs were identifiable by the amount of healing they did (was a different amount to the melee swing) and when I got 4 consolidated hits of HotR I got 4 consolidated heals going out too.

Combatlog incoming, I'll try to find an isolated place with a guard to get the heal.

Here you are. It isn't long, but should have enough info in it to either add weight to my hypothesis that it is a 100% chance, or confirm that we need to do more testing (i.e. I am wrong).
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/oxcqo2z5irvfo8xl/
Fetzie | Protection Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2019
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:52 pm

updated the spreadsheet with my data. used the white club (1.9 speed)
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:05 pm

Using all 3 data sets:
AS minimum damage:
Code: Select all
General model:
     f(x) = 0.975*x+b
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
       b =        6113  (6075, 6150)

Goodness of fit:
  SSE: 1.884e+004
  R-square: 0.9999
  Adjusted R-square: 0.9999
  RMSE: 48.52

AS maximum damage:
Code: Select all
General model:
     f(x) = 0.975*x+b
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
       b =        7263  (7174, 7352)

Goodness of fit:
  SSE: 1.062e+005
  R-square: 0.9997
  Adjusted R-square: 0.9997
  RMSE: 115.2


0.975 is exactly 1.5 times the old coefficient (0.545*AP+0.21*SP = 0.65*AP). The base damage range is consistent with twice the old base damage (4488*1.5=6732) within error, so we can reasonably say that AS was just scaled by a flat factor of 1.5.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6205
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:58 am

Is there anything else you need me to test later today?

Also, it felt weird, but does SoI has a hidden threat component? I had an easier time keeping large groups of mobs with SoI than I did with either SoR or SoT.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby jere » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:08 am

Pyrea wrote:The ShoR, CS and HotR procs were identifiable by the amount of healing they did (was a different amount to the melee swing) and when I got 4 consolidated hits of HotR I got 4 consolidated heals going out too.

Something to try for the future:
In Wrath, you could turn your character sideways enough to where your special attacks could hit a target, but your melee wouldn't. I haven't checked to see if that is still the case since testing in Wrath though.
Image
User avatar
jere
 
Posts: 2381
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 5:12 pm

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Fetzie » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:08 am

Also, it felt weird, but does SoI has a hidden threat component?

The Healing?


That trick with standing next to the dummy worked, see following log without melee swings
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fia51pqqg0q7t2j4/
Fetzie | Protection Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2019
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:15 am

Pyrea wrote:
Also, it felt weird, but does SoI has a hidden threat component?

The Healing?


That trick with standing next to the dummy worked, see following log without melee swings
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fia51pqqg0q7t2j4/


I thought they had removed threat from healing. Or maybe I'm just dumb.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: A Call to Arms - MoP Mechanics Testing

Postby Fetzie » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:38 am

They removed it from resource generation, but healing threat is still in the game.
Fetzie | Protection Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2019
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest