5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby Knievel » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:32 pm

Very nice write up! Thanks for summarizing it.

I have the per-expansion stat question that I know THeck has answered and shown charts but I have not been able to decipher yet:
What are we looking for in our stats? I saw on the blizzard boards 7.5 Hit, then 7.5 Expertise, then max out on stamina while finding a good mix of mastery etc.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby jere » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:15 pm

Something to consider:
In the "where did my auras go?" section, it might be worth mentioning that crusader aura is still around, but is baked into the class a self only passive buff. The link for it is http://www.wowhead.com/spell=32223 if interested.

Not that it is necessary to know for raiding, but just for completeness. May not be worth it for the FAQ, but figured I would mention it incase.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby knaughty » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:17 pm

DisRuptive1 wrote:According to Theck, Consecration being ahead of Avenger's Shield (when the proc isn't up) is a slight DPS increase.


Yes, in theory something like ^WB>CS>J>AS+>Cons>^SS>AS>HW>SotR is optimal.

However, it's single-figure percentages better than just binding similar to this:
  1. CS (shift/alt/ctrl for HotR)
  2. Judge
  3. Avenger's Shield
  4. Consecrate (shift/alt/ctrl for SS)
  5. Holy Wrath
  6. ShoR (shift/alt/ctrl for WoG)
Your rotation then becomes "hit the leftmost ability that's available". My (very strong) opinion is that clean execution of a simpler rotation will do more DPS than sketch execution of a complex rotation.

In addition, a simpler rotation allows more attention to fight mechanics. Max damage is "Job 4".

I've lost track of how many server firsts I've tanked. I can't think of one where me doing an extra 1-5% damage was critical to success. I can't count the wipes that have been caused by me making a tiny mistake.

Maybe MoP will be different and tank damage rather than fight control will be the important thing. Seems pretty damn unlikely to me, however.

Thus, my advice is:
  1. CS > Judge > AS > Cons > HW. K.I.S.S.
  2. Weakened Blows & SS take priority over next ability that doesn't generate Holy Power. Ideally, you refresh them before they fall off.
  3. Spend any left over brainpower on executing fight mechanics better and paying attention to your environment, rather than trying to do 3% more damage.
  4. ShoR @ 5 HoPo unless WoG is better. You'll know this because you're paying attention to you health, your healer's mana, any adds, the next incoming fight mechanic/special/whatever because you're not tracking procs or other shit.

Another example of "Knaughty advises you not to do max DPS". Never Glyph Avenger's Shield. The DPS boost isn't worth the deaths and wipes cause by the fact that you can't cleanly pick up three adds. People concentrate too much on max DPS on the boss rather than cleanly, quickly and efficiently clearing the trash to reach the bosses. I've g-kicked someone for consistently being last on DPS for trash despite being top-5 for DPS on bosses.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby DisRuptive1 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:03 pm

Have you not updated the gearing section because you don't have enough time, you're lazy, or you're just not sure what to say? I noticed in your 4.0 FAQ that the gearing section wasn't filled out either.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby knaughty » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:11 pm

DisRuptive1 wrote:Have you not updated the gearing section because you don't have enough time, you're lazy, or you're just not sure what to say? I noticed in your 4.0 FAQ that the gearing section wasn't filled out either.


4.0 wasn't completed because I wasn't playing very much at launch and there wasn't much to add to the references sections.

I will have some stuff to say this time about gearing strategies. Today's blog post from Theck covers the ugly detail, I will summarise later, but the amazingly short version is this:

As far as your healer is concerned, Mastery/Hit/Expertise > Dodge/Parry
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby theckhd » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:08 am

knaughty wrote:
DisRuptive1 wrote:According to Theck, Consecration being ahead of Avenger's Shield (when the proc isn't up) is a slight DPS increase.


Yes, in theory something like ^WB>CS>J>AS+>Cons>^SS>AS>HW>SotR is optimal.

However, it's single-figure percentages better than just binding similar to this:
  1. CS (shift/alt/ctrl for HotR)
  2. Judge
  3. Avenger's Shield
  4. Consecrate (shift/alt/ctrl for SS)
  5. Holy Wrath
  6. ShoR (shift/alt/ctrl for WoG)
Your rotation then becomes "hit the leftmost ability that's available". My (very strong) opinion is that clean execution of a simpler rotation will do more DPS than sketch execution of a complex rotation.


I have to second this. For my work, people do care about the absolute maximum DPS you can pull, because there are players who are playing at that level reading it. Sort of like how Ret paladins in top-50 guilds will do something very complex for a 0.5% damage increase. At their level of competition, it actually matters, and they have the skill to pull it off.

For someone reading the Basic Training forum, the increase of AS+>Cons>AS or Cons>AS is minute enough that it won't matter. It's more important that they execute a simpler (and potentially slightly-lower DPS) rotation than flub the more complicated one.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby econ21 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:22 am

Great work, thanks.

Some suggestions for the add-ons section, rather obvious:

Deadly Boss Mods or other raid encounter warning add-on - a new tank who does not use one of these is likely to be abused (typical boss briefing nowadays is "run away when DBM tells you to")

Omen - with the vengeance changes, I think tank swops got tricky again: we probably have to hold dps, certainly special moves, after the other tank has taunted off us.

Threatplates - personal recommendation, but having enlarged nameplates on mobs you've lost threat on is awesome for trash

Weakauras (or power auras) - again personal recommendation, but these are now my favorite kind of add-ons. Almost like a personal programmable DBM, you can customise the game to tell you all sorts of information about your rotation, status, targets etc (most basic and useful for me is a sound effect to notify 5 HoPo). You could link Theck's strings on his blog.

CLCRet - for off spec only, but great for when you are not the tank and used by some top end Retadins. An alternative place to mention this might be the section on levelling as Ret.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby DisRuptive1 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:42 pm

I really wouldn't focus on mods unless they are absolutely necessary to just not be a bad player. For that, I would really only recommend Deadly Boss Mods (or equivalent) and GTFO. Deadly Boss Mods tells you when stuff is coming up and GTFO tells you when you're standing in fire (by playing a loud, distinctive noise). Even Omen might not be entirely necessary as the information is already presented to you on the targeting frame. Every other mod is just for convenience and for that you can recommend the Curse client so people can browse, easily install, and upgrade any mods they want.

Will any mention be made about the optimal ratio of Parry to Dodge (3.563)? It's basically free avoidance solely from reforging. Based on your stat recommendations, players will want to reforge Parry/Dodge to Mastery (or to Hit/Expertise if not capped). Knowing which stat on an item that might have both Parry and Dodge will minimize the amount of avoidance lost in order to increase Mastery.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby Meloree » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:41 am

theckhd wrote:
knaughty wrote:
DisRuptive1 wrote:My (very strong) opinion is that clean execution of a simpler rotation will do more DPS than sketch execution of a complex rotation.


I have to second this. For my work, people do care about the absolute maximum DPS you can pull, because there are players who are playing at that level reading it.

For someone reading the Basic Training forum, the increase of AS+>Cons>AS or Cons>AS is minute enough that it won't matter. It's more important that they execute a simpler (and potentially slightly-lower DPS) rotation than flub the more complicated one.


Which leads us to this advice for the Rotation part of the FAQ: Push more buttons. It is almost always better to push the wrong button quickly than to press the right button half a second late. Almost every time I've looked at WoL for a tank having DPS/TPS problems, they're doing a perfect rotation very slowly.

There are fights where tank DPS makes a difference - yes, it's "job 4" (and I generally agree with that), but *most* tanks can pick up an extra 20% of their DPS just by pushing buttons *faster*. Maximum spammage is still worth watching and taking to heart.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby Paxen » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:20 am

While I adore that Kipparian video, isn't it a bit out of date after Cata? Or is it only in my head that blizzard changed the queueing system for abilities?

At least spamming keys doesn't work very well for me now, while pressing them half a second early does.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby theckhd » Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:25 am

Paxen wrote:While I adore that Kipparian video, isn't it a bit out of date after Cata? Or is it only in my head that blizzard changed the queueing system for abilities?

At least spamming keys doesn't work very well for me now, while pressing them half a second early does.

I don't believe you can cast-queue things that are on cooldown. We still paid the latency+reaction penalty on CS during all of Cataclysm, because we were casting CS on cooldown, and you couldn't queue it up early.

We're in the same position with the majority of our HPG (CS and half of our J casts) in Mists, so it's still perfectly applicable.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby Paxen » Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:34 am

theckhd wrote:I don't believe you can cast-queue things that are on cooldown. We still paid the latency+reaction penalty on CS during all of Cataclysm, because we were casting CS on cooldown, and you couldn't queue it up early.


Ah, thanks. That probably explains why I only noticed it on my mage late in cata.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby Meloree » Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:37 pm

Paxen wrote:While I adore that Kipparian video, isn't it a bit out of date after Cata? Or is it only in my head that blizzard changed the queueing system for abilities?

At least spamming keys doesn't work very well for me now, while pressing them half a second early does.


Nope, it's pretty much timeless. Maximum spammage is, perhaps, less important (and only less important, it hasn't gone away for anyone) for some classes than it used to be, but certainly not prot paladins. It remains critical to peak performance.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby aresius » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:09 pm

Hey.
Firstly i wanted to express that the "FAQ guide" format really came out as a good and fluid read, streight to the point and informative.
There is however one detail that im not sure if is in fact a mistake or my own poor interpretation of what a priority list means.

On the "rotation priorities" section, it bugs me to see SoTR in the list at all (and the last position at that!).
Since its a ability that is off the CGD, wouldent it make more sense to not have it in that list at all? It really does not relate in priority to any other of the skills and, in my understanding, you will just pop it when at 5 HPs or when needed, regardless of the rotation.

For me when i see SoTR at the bottom of a rotation list, i feel like i am being told to use this skill only when no others are available, which would be a terrile use of SoTR.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby knaughty » Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:53 pm

No, it's a good suggestion. I'll make the change.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby daishan » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:19 am

Very nicely written :D
Was wondering what peoples feelings on flasks and elixirs where?
In cata I almost always went with a mast and prismatic combo as I found the magic dmg reduction very strong on most fights. With prismatics gone will we be looking at mast/armour for physical dmg fights and stam flask for high magic fights?
I'm assuming we'll be using stam food or is there any advantage to be had from strength food?
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby Fenrìr » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:47 am

Crystal of Insanity is OP atm; imo.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby Melathys » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:17 pm

I noticed this.

Seal of Truth and Censure now deal 80% less damage for Protection Paladins only.


I've been using seal of truth, should I still be doing so?
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:52 pm

Theck did his number thingie

SoT is 3500 DPS above SoI
SoR is 1650 DPS above SoI
SoI is 17k HPS

A couple constatations:
SoI out-threats SoT (17k healing roughly equals 8,5k DPS threat-wise)
SoI out-threats SoR from 1-4 targets
SoT out-dps SoR on 1-2 targets

So, yes and no. I guess we're right now looking at the choices between a marginal, unreliable healing with good threat, or a marginal DPS boost.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby hedstrom » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:58 am

Sagara wrote:Stuff about seals

So SoI is better than both for threat and heals and SoR and SoT are only better for dps then?
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby Sagara » Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:05 am

Currently.

SoI being threat-tastic sounds a bit silly, and I wouldn't put it past Blizz to bitch-slap the seal's threat.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby Melathys » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:33 am

One thing I miss about Final Fantasy 11's paladin vs WoW's is how in FFXI paladins healed themselves and others for threat. They were basically armored healers, which sounds very paladin-y to me. So using SoL sounds good to me.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby Mozen » Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:52 am

Maybe I'm just been dumb. I would appreciate if anyone could enlighten me.

We're supposed to cast ShoR for the damage reduction as much as we can. So how come it sits right at the end of the "rotation"? Is it just there as filler? Would there actually be any time when all those other spells are on cooldown while we have a ShoR ready to fire?
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:57 am

It's off-GCD, so really sits outside the priority list.
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Re: 5.0 Tankadin FAQ - Protection Paladin Basics

Postby Mozen » Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:53 am

Oh, okay, I see. I've been leveling ret and didn't realize ShoR was off the GCD. Thanks!

Regarding Divine Purpose, it seems to proc quite often. I've even grown to expect it to proc just about every mob I kill. And often I expect it to proc multiple times per mob. I can't count the number of times I've had it proc for three times in a row. The longest streak I had was 8 procs back-to-back as I spam my Templar's Verdict.

Perhaps it could be paired with Harsh Words for, say, farming content?
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