Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby theckhd » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:05 pm

Actually, if I had to guess, the calculation ignored player-based buffs but included enemy debuffs. I'm sure they can distinguish between buffs and debuffs on a player, and adjust the calculation accordingly.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Kihra » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:06 pm

theckhd wrote:Actually, if I had to guess, the calculation ignored player-based buffs but included enemy debuffs. I'm sure they can distinguish between buffs and debuffs on a player, and adjust the calculation accordingly.


Yeah, I think the distinction is the origin of the buff/debuff, i.e., whether it comes from a player or an enemy.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Nooska wrote:Well /cancelaura resets the count of SS, while a refresh just extends it - basically, you need to be very precise with /cancelaura to be of any real help/use, as it will be +6 seconds from teh cancelaura, and you will always get the next shiled before or at latest the same tme if you just refresh.

(Now remembering to keep the darned thing up otoh...)

That's the point. If you aren't using /cancelaura to try and time the bubbles to coincide with spikes, then it's just TDR, not spike relief.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby theckhd » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:14 pm

I think trying to time the bubble to coincide with a spike is pretty pointless. Unless a single attack that will kill you is what you're you're trying to prevent (in which case, why aren't you using the cooldowns you're given for that?), you also care about the damage occurring before and after that. Cancel-casting SS to time up the bubble with the middle attack is generally going to be inefficient, because you're giving up the one guaranteed absorb in that 6-second period that you would've gotten w/o cancel-casting, as well as potentially a second one from the following tick. In many cases, trying to be tricky and lining up your SS bubble with the middle attack will be a net increase in damage taken, because you would have gotten two absorbs from the spell during the spike window otherwise.

TLDR: if you're trying to be tricky with SS, you're probably fooling yourself. We have better things to do with our GCDs than time SS.

<edit> inb4the "but what about Impale, huh?" Yes, what about the mechanic that puts a 5-second debuff on you and then hits you like a truck? Did your off-tank taunt as soon as the debuff appeared? Good, then you haven't been taking any melee attacks, and still have your absorb bubble for that time period. Not seeing a problem here.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:54 pm

theckhd wrote:In many cases, trying to be tricky and lining up your SS bubble with the middle attack will be a net increase in damage taken, because you would have gotten two absorbs from the spell during the spike window otherwise.

So then why would it be so much better than grabbing EF, for the HoT, that will be nearly as effective/useless in the long run? Outside of the HoPo cost for EF (which you would have been using for WoG in that instance anyway) what added benefit does SS give? If we were that concerned about TDR, then we should be stacking Dodge/Parry.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby stevos » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:08 pm

Can someone quickly go over the current mechanic of SS

It's a 30sec buff and first bubble hits 6secs after cast, and new one every 6secs, so a total of 5 bubbles. I am assuming the last bubble appears at the 30th second? So for max damage reduction you want to refresh the instant the buff drops off but ideally not before?

It doesn't appear to crit, but is it effected by haste? If its not effected by haste or crit, it would appear weak for holy pala, since HoP generation is effected and therefore making the HoT uptime higher across the raid.

I havent really been playing since 5.0 hit, so not tested it much. Hopefully fully back next week for mists.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:16 pm

You would want to refresh it just before, as it will add the remaining time to your new buff (if you had 2 seconds left, refreshing will put you at 32 seconds, up to a cap of 35 from what I've seen.) Refreshing it like that won't reset when the next bubble occurs (it'll still happen in 2 seconds, instead of being reset to 6) but from what I understand, will take into account your current AP (from Vengeance, etc.)
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby stevos » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:41 pm

Is it not dynamic in regards to vengeance? I though they made most HoT and similar effects check current stats each time they proc now.

If its not, that makes things even more complicated.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby daishan » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:46 pm

stevos wrote:Is it not dynamic in regards to vengeance? I though they made most HoT and similar effects check current stats each time they proc now.

If its not, that makes things even more complicated.


That's what I thought, but apparently not.
Blizz been consistent again...
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby stevos » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:00 am

So it will be beneficial to reapply as soon as possible after the encounter starts and you have vengeance.

I have been putting it up on the pull, as part of my pre pull check list.

Shane they got rid of the initial shield happening at cast, was more fun refreshing on cd or when needed.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby daishan » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:10 am

Ye re applying it in your first free gcd or maybe hit SS instead of your first non holy power generating ability depending on how tank damage is near the start of the encounter.
I think tank switch fights will be more interesting, drop SS on your co tank as he taunts off you on any tank switch fight that doesn't leave a big dot on you.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:43 am

Skye1013 wrote:
theckhd wrote:In many cases, trying to be tricky and lining up your SS bubble with the middle attack will be a net increase in damage taken, because you would have gotten two absorbs from the spell during the spike window otherwise.

So then why would it be so much better than grabbing EF, for the HoT, that will be nearly as effective/useless in the long run? Outside of the HoPo cost for EF (which you would have been using for WoG in that instance anyway) what added benefit does SS give? If we were that concerned about TDR, then we should be stacking Dodge/Parry.

There are a number of reasons that SS is much better than the EF HoT, enough so that I should probably write a blog post about it. Short version:
1) Absorbs are better than HoTs in general, because damage prevented is better than damage taken and healed.
2) Similarly to #1, an absorb changes the choices your healer makes. He won't see the spike in the first place, and won't try to react to it. With a HoT, he will try and react to the spike (if he's any good) and subsequently turn a lot of that HoT into overheal.
3) Opportunity cost. If you're only getting the benefit from EF when you would have cast a WoG anyhow, your EF uptime is going to be very low. If you try and keep the HoT up full time by casting it every ~30 seconds, you're sacrificing SotR casts (arguably an even bigger loss). Sacred Shield has neither of these drawbacks, it only costs DPS.

stevos wrote:Can someone quickly go over the current mechanic of SS

It uses standard HoT mechanics. It's a 30-second haste-affected buff, granting a tick every 6 seconds. In this case, the tick is just an absorb bubble. Note that you can get 6+ ticks out of it if you stack haste.

daishan wrote:
stevos wrote:Is it not dynamic in regards to vengeance? I though they made most HoT and similar effects check current stats each time they proc now.

If its not, that makes things even more complicated.


That's what I thought, but apparently not.
Blizz been consistent again...


Except... no? It's entirely consistent with HoT/DoT mechanics. The amount is set when the 30-second buff is applied or refreshed. That's how every other HoT/DoT in the game works. So 100% consistent.

That said, I agree that it probably shouldn't be consistent in this case. SS makes a little more sense if the amount is set on the tick rather than the overall buff. But that has more to do with how wonky Vengeance is than how HoTs/DoTs should work.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby daishan » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:03 am

Hmm, I was sure in the middle of beta blizz said spriest dots where going to update dynamically, but I can't find it now and the only stuff I can find says the dot power is still calculated at cast. Guess I was wrong there :roll:
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby stevos » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:24 am

All healing HoT were changed to dynamic at the start of cata. Each tick was based on your current crit/sp levels.

Unless they have changed it again without me noticing, which is entirely possible.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:59 am

stevos wrote:All healing HoT were changed to dynamic at the start of cata. Each tick was based on your current crit/sp levels.

No, they weren't. As far as I know, they have never worked this way.

And in any event, I'm 100% sure they don't in 5.0.4. So the game would appear to disagree with you.

On my balance druid:
Cast Rejuv, ticks for 6474.
Apply Mark of the Wild during the effect, still ticks for 6474.
Refresh Rejuv, ticks for 6561.
Moonfire a dummy to proc DMC:Volcano, still ticks for 6561.
Refresh Rejuv during Volcano proc, ticks for 6712.
Volcano effect expires, Rejuv still ticking for 6712.
Recast Rejuv after it expires, ticks for 6561.
Right click to remove MotW, still ticking for 6561.

Healing amount is only recalculated on refresh of the buff, just like DoT effects.
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