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Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Nooska » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:48 am

I don't agree with needing expert timing on SS, its just become a maintenance buff you cast at least 6 seconds before pull (preferably something like 9 seconds before pull, so you have a full absorb bubble for 3 seconds before getting a new one)
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Treck » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:49 am

If you say SS needs expert timing, then EF would need expert timing as well.
EF ticks pretty slow, in a 25man raid situation it would have to tick pretty damn high for it to be worth it without beeing blurred into the raidhealing to much.
None of them are going to make you able to take care of yourself, but generally absorbs is better than healing.
And I dont like the fact that It removes our OH shit buttong that much if you want to keep EF with "optimal" uptime.
3x HP WoG sure does quite some healing, with 5x Bastion it will pretty much always heal you up to 100% hp (with proper vengeance).
Thats my real problem with EF, and thats whats going to save you from a whipe, not constant small heals.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby degre » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:30 am

Treck wrote:And I dont like the fact that It removes our OH shit buttong that much if you want to keep EF with "optimal" uptime.

This is pretty much why I prefer having the shield.

EF gives a HOT that replaces WoG and still costs HP which you could spend in ShoTR.
SS gives a shield that costs no HP and still leave us with WoG available.

While I like the idea of the HoT, it feels like something to be used on CD like SS but that would leave me with no HP and no WoG.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:36 pm

Only reason I say that SS needs "expert timing" is because otherwise it's about as useful as Dodge/Parry in that it only factors into TDR, not guaranteed spike reduction. Granted, EF doesn't cover that either, so I guess it'll really just be a matter of preference.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby lifeonmars » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:58 pm

Skye1013 wrote:Only reason I say that SS needs "expert timing" is because otherwise it's about as useful as Dodge/Parry in that it only factors into TDR, not guaranteed spike reduction. Granted, EF doesn't cover that either, so I guess it'll really just be a matter of preference.


It kind of falls into an intermediate category between those two extremes, because it has some features of guaranteed spike reduction in the sense that the moment there is eligible damage within the 6s window, it will mitigate it, but it resembles TDR in the sense that you can only predict what proportion of eligible damage it will mitigate stochastically.

Intuitively I would think as the duration of the absorb shield component were to be lessened, it would begin to act more like guaranteed damage reduction, and as the duration were increased, it would act more like avoidance. Comparably to the mathematical limit example of avoidance behaving exactly like armor as swing speed increases without bound and swing size decreases without bound.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby stevos » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:57 pm

Whilst SS might be the best on paper talent, I am giving it some second thoughts.

I am seeing average heals of 17.2k across a DS heroic raid, which is about 6% of my health or about equiv to one slow efficient heal from a healer. Made worse by almost 30% of the bubble being 'overhealing' on WoL, which i guess will drop with lower dodge/parry at 90.

When you consider how difficult it is to perfectly line the first bubble with a specific boss ability, whilst keeping up a decent dps rotation, I am wondering if another option might be better.

Selfless healer would give a seriously nice burst healing, combined with 5 stacks of bastion WoG and maybe the glyph.

Kind of depends on the boss mechnic, but I am wondering.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby lifeonmars » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:48 pm

I wouldn't really take the "overheal" amount on SS very seriously, simply because if it tallies up as overhealing, you didn't need any healing during that 6s interval anyway. I feel like this is analogous to a DK worrying that avoidance reduces the throughput of Deathstrike, when in practice it was more desirable to have not taken the hit in the first place than to simply tally up bigger Deathstrike numbers (although keep in mind that analogy specifically does not apply to us because blood shield rolls, so for DK's there is a synergy between avoidance and the proportion of eligible melee hits that are covered by some amount of bloodshield).

The strength of SS imo is not necessarily one that can be computed objectively simply on the basis of throughput, it's that in every 6s interval in which a burst scenario happens, it will have always done something for you simply on the basis of having kept it refreshed (which is trivial because there are plenty of "holes" in the rotation to have perfect uptime).

EF requires you to use HoPo suboptimally in order to maintain uptime on a HoT. SH looks good and is definitely worth considering, but I'm not really thrilled with the fact that its availability is so constrained by building charges. Also I don't feel like in practice our current design really needs another reactive self-heal when defaulting to SotR @ 5 HoPo consistently leaves you with a 2 HoPo WoG always at your disposal, and only 1 generator away from the full strength. In practice, that feels like plenty of reaction to burst.

I think a lot of the perception on this tier of the tree is a reflection of the narrative that we construct to ourselves to comprehend what the talent is actually doing. In terms of order of magnitude of effect, SS is very similar to having an extra block within every given span of 6s. If the mechanic were phrased in that way, I suspect we would perceive it being much more powerful than we do now (despite the confounding fact that if really did work like that, it would obviously have consequences on the desirability of mastery, and the absorb mechanic it uses right now operates independently).
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby stevos » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:00 pm

It really depends if burst is happening regularly.

If you progression healed in the last few tiers, you will have seen that most of the time tanks can be more or less kept up with AoE/HoTs, and then something will happen and the tank will take a period of heavy spike dmg. When you write off the overheal, you also write off the fact that if you didn't have SS up, you would still have been at 100% health with no additional healing required from the healers. A large percentage of healing directed towards tanks will be overhealing.

For large parts of each encounter, tank healing tends to be overheal. However, a fairly reasonable proportation of that burst happens when you don't expect it, mainly caused by a bad run of hits on the tank or one of the dps doing something silly and pulling multiple healers off the tank or healers make mistakes and line up the wrong heal.

Tank mitigiation needs to be in synegy to healing throughput, you need to be able to take less dmg/self heal 'more' when healers are struggling and ideally need to be able to control that.

The issue with SS is that the first shield is several seconds after you apply it, which means you can't use it defensively unless you know for sure that burst is coming and when its coming.

SS is great if your in a fight with constant heavy dmg, where the healers need to keep an eye on you, but your average fight where the tank health stays close to 100% with very little healer focus, its less effective.

The advantage of selfish healer, is its there when you need it, which is when we would be using WoG, I would assume. The question how often this occurs compared to the amount of raw dmg you will take during the period you are storing the selfless healer stacks is a trade off that only experience of the various fights will answer.

My guess is there will be some fights where one is better than the other and vice versa.

Where the first bubble occured on application, I really liked SS, but now not sure.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Gab » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:51 pm

stevos wrote:When you consider how difficult it is to perfectly line the first bubble with a specific boss ability, whilst keeping up a decent dps rotation, I am wondering if another option might be better.


It really isn't that difficult to time a SS cast at 7 seconds before X happens if you really need it and that will always be better than a HoT that may or may not do anything at all.

stevos wrote:If you progression healed in the last few tiers, you will have seen that most of the time tanks can be more or less kept up with AoE/HoTs, and then something will happen and the tank will take a period of heavy spike dmg. When you write off the overheal, you also write off the fact that if you didn't have SS up, you would still have been at 100% health with no additional healing required from the healers. A large percentage of healing directed towards tanks will be overhealing.


Uhh... Since you "progression" healed than you know tanks are getting direct heals after the melee swing before X ability to make sure they are topped off, reducing the effect HoTs will have. Many times multiple cooldowns are needed to barely survive the abilities that were the culprits of tank death (Drain, Impale etc...)in these scenarios an absorb is always better than a HoT, which is one reason SOE was so good even when it was two tiers of item lvl lower.

And as Lifeonmars commented there is a lot more opportunity cost involved with using EF whereas SS only requires our otherwise empty GCDs and maybe a little timing.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Cema » Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:18 pm

Don't know if someone already thought about it but ..

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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby stevos » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:03 pm

Gab wrote:Uhh... Since you "progression" healed than you know tanks are getting direct heals after the melee swing before X ability to make sure they are topped off, reducing the effect HoTs will have. Many times multiple cooldowns are needed to barely survive the abilities that were the culprits of tank death (Drain, Impale etc...)in these scenarios an absorb is always better than a HoT, which is one reason SOE was so good even when it was two tiers of item lvl lower.

And as Lifeonmars commented there is a lot more opportunity cost involved with using EF whereas SS only requires our otherwise empty GCDs and maybe a little timing.


Your talking around a specific boss ability there, which is only part of a fight and tends to happen around a couple of seconds, it tends not to be spam the tank for 10-20secs at a time, more land a couple of big heals on the tank, which is about 3-5seconds.

If the aim is to top the tank to full right before the boss nukes the tank, then Selfless Healer + WoG would be rather handy.

My issue with SS is that its difficult to time the shields around when you need it. You pretty much need faction of a second accuracy to get the most from it. Ideally I want the shield up when the boss ability hits and rely on the healers to have me ready for it. Failing that a big heal straight after it could be handy, if not as good.

I haven't tanked at max level on the beta, so this is just based on my observations in a heavily nerfed DS, I could be thinking completely differently come a real raid instance. It all comes down to synegy between healing through put, raid dmg and tank cd's.
Last edited by stevos on Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby stevos » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:04 pm

Cema wrote:Don't know if someone already thought about it but ..

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Anyone tried mimiron's 25 missile with AD yet? Didn't that hit for 1m HP.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Fetzie » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:45 am

1.7 million, and it worked in 4.3.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby stevos » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:33 am

Its a shame AD doesn't work on the impales on DW, if you waited for the 2nd one the dps would be insane. I am doing 500k SoTR hits after the first.
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Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Fetzie » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:47 am

stevos wrote:Its a shame AD doesn't work on the impales on DW, if you waited for the 2nd one the dps would be insane. I am doing 500k SoTR hits after the first.


http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=122994

Ability used by Blade Lord Ta'yak in Heart of Fear. 25 heroic damage says 10000000 to 12800000 damage. If AD works on that, fun times are to be had :)
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