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Hit, Expertise and the ramblings of a mad man

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Hit, Expertise and the ramblings of a mad man

Postby hightin » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:52 am

Last edited by hightin on Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hit, Expertise and the ramblings of a mad man

Postby theckhd » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:45 am

Judgment is no longer a spell. It was reverted to a melee attack that cannot be dodged or parried. Hence, expertise has no effect on Judgment, and since Judgment is a significant portion of our holy power generation, expertise is less effective for survival than hit is.
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Re: Hit, Expertise and the ramblings of a mad man

Postby daishan » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:57 am

Am I right in thinking AS is also a melee attack that can't be dodged or parried, so exp doesn't help with grand crusader procs either?
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Re: Hit, Expertise and the ramblings of a mad man

Postby theckhd » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:11 am

Nope, AS is a spell. However, that's irrelevant, because you get the Holy Power from Grand Crusader as soon as you cast AS. It doesn't matter whether that AS hits or misses. So the relevant part for Grand Crusader is the CS that procs it, thus hit and expertise both help. Basically, you can model Grand Crusader as just increasing your CS holy power generation by a factor of 1.2.
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Re: Hit, Expertise and the ramblings of a mad man

Postby daishan » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:31 am

Thx for the explanation :D
If you don't mind enlightening a slacker again, how does un-glyphed AS work when hitting 3 targets, can it miss the 1st then hit the next 2 or is it hit/miss all?
I'm fairly sure i've seen it hit 1 then miss the rest, but I've never tried checking logs.
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Re: Hit, Expertise and the ramblings of a mad man

Postby Gab » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:56 am

hightin wrote:We aren't DPS and we aren't looking to stack to 15% expertise and 7.5% hit


I may have dreamt it but I could have sworn we only need 7.5% hit to remove miss and 7.5% expertise to remove dodge AND parry. So for spell hit cap, because expertise now counts toward spell hit, we need only 7.5% of each.

Can't find anything concrete atm, apparently I fail at search.
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Re: Hit, Expertise and the ramblings of a mad man

Postby econ21 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:45 pm

daishan wrote:...how does un-glyphed AS work when hitting 3 targets, can it miss the 1st then hit the next 2 or is it hit/miss all?
I'm fairly sure i've seen it hit 1 then miss the rest, but I've never tried checking logs.


Theck will know for sure, but I presume there is a single hit roll. I think it then "bounces" to the next target, if there is one in suitable range, and then to the next. It may appear to miss the rest if they are not close enough. One thing I only recently learnt is that because the "bounce" is sequential it is better to aim at a target at the edge of a trio, e.g. bouncing from 1 to 2 to 3 as below:

1 => 2 => 3

What I used to do was aim for the middle, however, this meant that while it might bounce to one edge, it would then be out of range of the other edge, e.g. bouncing from 1 to 2 but then being unable to reach 3 as below:

3....1 => 2

Frustration at a lack of bounces is a big reason I glyphed AS to be single target (lack of trash in DS being the other). But to some extent, I was just doing it wrong.
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Re: Hit, Expertise and the ramblings of a mad man

Postby Fetzie » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:19 am

Gab wrote:
hightin wrote:We aren't DPS and we aren't looking to stack to 15% expertise and 7.5% hit


I may have dreamt it but I could have sworn we only need 7.5% hit to remove miss and 7.5% expertise to remove dodge AND parry. So for spell hit cap, because expertise now counts toward spell hit, we need only 7.5% of each.

Can't find anything concrete atm, apparently I fail at search.


7.5% Expertise still leaves a 7.5% parry chance by a level+3 enemy. You can only no longer be dodged, parried or have misses occur with 7.5% hit and 15% expertise.
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Re: Hit, Expertise and the ramblings of a mad man

Postby theckhd » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:51 am

daishan wrote:Thx for the explanation :D
If you don't mind enlightening a slacker again, how does un-glyphed AS work when hitting 3 targets, can it miss the 1st then hit the next 2 or is it hit/miss all?
I'm fairly sure i've seen it hit 1 then miss the rest, but I've never tried checking logs.

I'm pretty sure it rolls once for each target, and can hit or miss each one individually. That's off the top of my head though, so don't take it as gospel.

In addition, I think the target choice is independent of hit or miss. It seems to choose the next bounce target based on proximity to the current one. Hence the effect econ's observed - if you have 3 mobs and you target the one in the very middle, it will bounce to one of the outer ones, but if the two outer ones are far enough apart it may not be able to hit the third. If you choose a target on the end of the group, it will bounce from one to the other very nicely.

I don't think the next bounce depends on hit/miss either. So (provided I'm right about it missing targets independently) it can miss the first and still bounce to and hit the next two.

Gab wrote:I may have dreamt it but I could have sworn we only need 7.5% hit to remove miss and 7.5% expertise to remove dodge AND parry. So for spell hit cap, because expertise now counts toward spell hit, we need only 7.5% of each.

In the Cata system, expertise reduced dodge and parry simultaneously. In the MoP combat system, it's sequential. It removes dodge first, then any spillover will reduce parry. So the first 7.5% gets rid of dodge (and leaves you with 7.5% chance to be parried), the next 7.5% will get rid of parries.
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Re: Hit, Expertise and the ramblings of a mad man

Postby Nooska » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:16 am

In cata, I used AS quite extensively for pulling especially caster groups.
The effect econ is describing is well known to me, and I've even planned around which caster to target (and which melee mob to Exo as pull tool).
I have to say, that I have never noticed AS not hitting all three targets when it hit the first - while anecdotal, I never glyphed AS, so I used it quite a lot in DS as well (Hagara trash comes to mind), I think I would have seen it miss at least once if that was the case.
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Re: Hit, Expertise and the ramblings of a mad man

Postby daishan » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:46 am

Took some quick logs to check this, AS can indeed miss it's first target and hit the next 2.
I was targeting the "Raider's Training Dummy" I assume it shows last on the logs due to server side lag? I only have 26ms so seems like a big difference in time.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/yvjj ... atzxj/log/
Code: Select all
[17:28:15.932] Daishan casts Avenger's Shield on Raider's Training Dummy
[17:28:16.304] Daishan Avenger's Shield Training Dummy 1 (O: 5607)
[17:28:16.304] Daishan Avenger's Shield Training Dummy 1 (O: 5974)
[17:28:16.542] Daishan Avenger's Shield Raider's Training Dummy Miss
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Re: Hit, Expertise and the ramblings of a mad man

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:26 am

This obviously wouldn't be a concern to a Paladin, but does DW still have a higher hit cap compared to 1h or 2h? I really like the idea of a DW tank (Brewmasters) and lost that when they decided Blood was the tank spec for DKs. Just not sure how much "worse" they are from a hit standpoint (if at all anymore.)
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Re: Hit, Expertise and the ramblings of a mad man

Postby Rhiannon » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:49 am

Dual-wield hitcap is only increased for auto-attack, not anything else.
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Re: Hit, Expertise and the ramblings of a mad man

Postby Darielle » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:09 pm

Skye1013 wrote:This obviously wouldn't be a concern to a Paladin, but does DW still have a higher hit cap compared to 1h or 2h? I really like the idea of a DW tank (Brewmasters) and lost that when they decided Blood was the tank spec for DKs. Just not sure how much "worse" they are from a hit standpoint (if at all anymore.)


As someone stated above, DW uses the same hit for specials, it's only autoattach that has a miss penalty. You can see this when you mouseover Hit as a Dual Wielder - it shows two sets, one for autoattacks and one for special attacks.
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