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Valor, Honor, Conquest, and Justice, oh my!

Mists of Pandaria Beta discussion

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Re: Valor, Honor, Conquest, and Justice, oh my!

Postby bldavis » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:13 pm

sounds like use and our mage
in T11 we had a really great healadin pug that got along great with our group
he started raiding with his guild in T12, but still wanted to raid with us, and had a mage

T13, and he is still with us
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: Valor, Honor, Conquest, and Justice, oh my!

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:16 pm

Dirtying up our feasts every chance he gets...
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
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Re: Valor, Honor, Conquest, and Justice, oh my!

Postby Levantine » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:02 pm

m
Amirya wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:I don't know what kind of world you live in, but in my world, PUGs are like lepers... all they do is fall apart.

No, we've had some entertaining pugs (the entertainment is when someone calls them out for epic failure, and they have 1001 excuses why).

By someone you mean me, don't you. T_T
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Re: Valor, Honor, Conquest, and Justice, oh my!

Postby Darielle » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:12 pm

sorry but in 10 man, you lose a larger percentage of dps when you are missing someone, so maybe in 25 man it is ok to raid without pugs if someone is missing


Missing one or two works fine for most encounters. A couple of highly specific encounters (like Nef) become harder if you're missing people on 10-man, but they were never really properly designed for 10-man to begin with, let alone 10-man with less people.

Especially if we're apparently not talking about Heroic mode.

10-man gets tuned really lightly when it comes to DPS as it is - missing people just means actually going to a Berserk timer is on the cards.
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Re: Valor, Honor, Conquest, and Justice, oh my!

Postby bldavis » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:40 pm

Levantine wrote:m
Amirya wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:I don't know what kind of world you live in, but in my world, PUGs are like lepers... all they do is fall apart.

No, we've had some entertaining pugs (the entertainment is when someone calls them out for epic failure, and they have 1001 excuses why).

By someone you mean me, don't you. T_T

most of the time yes :twisted:
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: Valor, Honor, Conquest, and Justice, oh my!

Postby Worldie » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:34 pm

bldavis wrote:
Worldie wrote:I think any guild who brings pugs to their main run must be either desperate or very irresponsible.
Usually it's better to raid with 23 than to bring pugs.

we are a 10 man guild, and at the time we were having enough issue with 10 ppl

sorry but in 10 man, you lose a larger percentage of dps when you are missing someone, so maybe in 25 man it is ok to raid without pugs if someone is missing

In a 10 men raid however the amount of damage a person not knowing what to do can produce is also exponentially bigger than in 10 men.
We've killed madness normal 10 in 10 people with 3 offspecced alt doing pretty much less dps than tanks. I'm quite sure that if DPS are competent, you can easily 7-8 man DS normal.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Valor, Honor, Conquest, and Justice, oh my!

Postby bldavis » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:34 pm

we rarely had to get pugs in T13
it was mostly in T11 and occasionally T12
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: Valor, Honor, Conquest, and Justice, oh my!

Postby econ21 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:56 pm

My guild (10 man) would usually cancel a raid before taking a PUG. I thought they were overly cautious, but most just did not like the risk and hassle. Non-attendance has been a very big deal for us. If you are progressing, there's no way you can lose 1/10 of your people (if you could kill the boss with 9/10 of your raid, you would have killed it last week).

Things changed a lot with the rapid DS nerfs, which got to the point where we could 8 man most of it (the last one or two would still be too rough for us to want to try). But at that stage, progression is over (we weren't doing heroic modes) and attendance started to drop further for that reason, until we just gave up raiding a few months ago (when D3 came out). I really hope we get things back together for MoP, as WoW without an active guild is a pretty dull affair, imo.
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Re: Valor, Honor, Conquest, and Justice, oh my!

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:03 am

But with PuGs, every week is progression!

For the most part, if we had to PuG more than three people, we'd just not go. T11/12 we were apparently feeling much braver about that (or less exhausted in general.) T13 (as bldavis mentioned) we had fewer issues with needing PuGs, as more people in the guild became active.

Not sure if it was more fun to see Lev tear up a PuGer or (former) guildies though...
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
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Re: Valor, Honor, Conquest, and Justice, oh my!

Postby Darielle » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:39 am

if you could kill the boss with 9/10 of your raid, you would have killed it last week


No, that's a complete overgeneralisation. The week before, you were still learning how to handle mechanics, and your wipes should have been dying to mechanics that people hadn't quite mastered. Now, having one less person could completely have the potential to make those mechanics a bit harder than they should have been, especially in the case of fights built around delicate splits (like Nef) or shared/split damage mechanics, but killing with 9 is just a binary of "are we capable of putting out the minimum requirements" for this. And normal mode lets you do that on 10-man no problems.
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Re: Valor, Honor, Conquest, and Justice, oh my!

Postby econ21 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:18 am

Darielle wrote:No, that's a complete overgeneralisation. ... And normal mode lets you do that on 10-man no problems.


Well, your last sentence suggests I might not be the only one over-generalising. You have to remember there's quite a big continuum of skill among players in WoW. 10-man normal is no problem for heroic raiders, but not everyone.

I'm just going from my experience. I can't recall ever being roadblocked on a boss one week and then, with the same crew, killing it so comfortably the next that we could have done it one person short. If there is a 5% DS buff in between, I can just about see it (Blackthorn became dramatically easier after the first 5% buff). But typically, when we progress, it's by the skin of our teeth, there is much elation and cheering. Yes, it gets easier after that but it still takes time to perfect executing the mechanics.

But I am generalising from my experience as someone who focuses on progressing in 10-man normal. I know folk like Worldie raid at a much higher level and no doubt they could progress in 10-man normal short-handed. Week 2, they probably jump straight to heroic mode, which is much harder than a 10% debuff on normal mode. However, I may be the kind of raider that Blizzard introduced the incremental 5% buffs for. Guilds I've been in sometimes get blocked on 10 man normal (Beth'tilac, Blackthorn) and may need a buff to progress, so we certainly could not do it with a 10% debuff.

I suspect for that kind of guild, non-attendance and consequent cancelled raids is a big factor hindering progression. (And it's Blizzard's fear that a roadblock will lead to disillusion and lack of attendance that lies behind the progressive nerfs.)
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Re: Valor, Honor, Conquest, and Justice, oh my!

Postby bldavis » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:37 am

i am in the same boat as econ,
for us 10man normal IS progression

it was a big step for us to raid DS pre nerfs and we actually got 5/8 pre nerf with black horn being 5% (i think)
i know there are alot of MTadins that are from heroic raiding guilds, and i cheer for their progress
in world first races i cheer for Method due to Treckie

but there are ALOT of us that dont raid heroic due to a variety of reasons
we might not be as good at the game, we might want more friendship based guilds vs progression GOGOGOGO MUST GET KILLS NERDRAGE
hell maybe some of us just dont want to put in the effort that it takes to be a top end heroic raider

but it shouldnt matter
we each have our own progression pace, and we each have our own way of playing

some like Halabar are AH goblins
i have >30k across 13 85s, but that is because i like playing different toons and want to play the game, not just the AH
some of us like to PvP, others cant stand it

it really comes down to the fact that there is no ONE way to play the game
in the same vein, there is no one way to raid or be a raider
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: Valor, Honor, Conquest, and Justice, oh my!

Postby Darielle » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:28 pm

Well, your last sentence suggests I might not be the only one over-generalising. You have to remember there's quite a big continuum of skill among players in WoW. 10-man normal is no problem for heroic raiders, but not everyone.


~

That's not so much a generalisation, so much as the content requires a minimum performance of X, and that stays set regardless of how many people you have or where they're at. The minimum requirements to get through are lesser on 10-N, and allow people to pull off more than that by going beyond the minimum requirements. Naturally, there will be people who aren't above the minimum, but that doesn't rebound back on content's level - the content is at the same place it was. It doesn't actually take much to have 4 dps and a couple of tanks outdoing the minimum required from 5 dps and 2 tanks - it takes something like 1 short AND trying to 3-heal Ultraxion to even start requiring over 30k dps from people if I remember his health at 0% correctly.

Certainly beint 10-man actually does push requirements the lowest they can go. Sure, a 25-N with 24 people has a bit more gradual jumps in terms of their damage dealers by virtue of going 16/17 instead of 4/5, but those 16/17 wind up having to perform at a similar measurable level to that 4/5. A 25-man that's missing 2-3 people will have to do more than that 10-man will missing 1.

I mean, this whole thing started with an off the cuff comment about how it's probably better to just raid with missing people than to pug. I don't agree with that aside from very few fights where the pug being bad can bite you in the butt; even if he kills himself 20 seconds in, at least that's 20 seconds of his damage you don't have to do.
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