LGBT rights discussion

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Malthrax » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:58 am

Shoju - the problem with your characterization is that "continue to use the word 'God' on currency" and "actively go out of their way to be atheistic" aren't polar opposites. Not even close. To be fair, your line chart should have another data point ideal - convert the United States of America into a Christian Theocracy (i.e. go out of their way to be overtly THEISTIC).

Also, flop the char left/right, so the left is the left and the right is the right :D
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:24 am

Malthrax wrote:Shoju - the problem with your characterization is that "continue to use the word 'God' on currency" and "actively go out of their way to be atheistic" aren't polar opposites. Not even close. To be fair, your line chart should have another data point ideal - convert the United States of America into a Christian Theocracy (i.e. go out of their way to be overtly THEISTIC).

Also, flop the char left/right, so the left is the left and the right is the right :D


I do believe that I addressed that.

Shoju wrote:The problem that people have, is that the scale/line chart, goes further than the dem POV, to another POV, and its something that we aren't used to, because we are conditioned that those are the two "extremes" or "Perspectives" in our culture, even though, as we should have at least learned here on this forum, that there is probably even more to the left of this line graph (fundamentalist societies), and there is definitely more to the right side.


They are two plots on a line going in different directions. I don't believe that I ever referred to them as Polar Opposites. They are at different "ends" of the "perspective spectrum", but they aren't polar opposites, even if they do fall on opposing sides of the argument.

You could have even further points than that as well. You could have "Theocracy", then you could have forced theocracy, then you could even have an extreme fundamentalist theocracy that went around putting bullets in the heads of its citizens for not abiding by every tenant of the law of the theocracy. Which is I why I closed with the paragraph that I quoted.

I purposely set the chart up in that "backwards" fashion. Call it a.... test, for my own amusement.

From a personal perspective, I don't think that the government should use God, or In God we trust, or anything like that, and my beliefs are out there, I do have some sort of belief in "God". But I also understand that my religious faith should have absolutely zero to do with politics, just like my faith shouldn't cloud my judgement in science. Personal religious beliefs shouldn't be used in decisions regarding governmental oversight, laws, and decision making in the United States. And because I feel that way, I also feel that In God we trust should be removed from our money, and from the pledge. Again, it's not because I'm Atheist, or Agnostic, or Buddhist. It's because I firmly believe that the only way that a countries government can continue to evolve and be progressive, is to remove religion from the governing of its citizens.

When I start looking at candidates, I actually try as hard as I can to not let their religious views into the equation. Religious issues are such a small part of the "big picture" when looking at it, that I don't even want it to matter. I want my government to regulate my rights regardless of my, or their, religious affiliation. I do feel like it is the biggest stumbling block in America towards having a society where anyone 2 consenting competent individuals can "marry" (civil union, whatever you care to call it) and be afforded the same legal rights as any other two consenting competent individuals
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Passionario » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:33 am

Shoju wrote:And because I feel that way, I also feel that In God we trust should be removed from our money


Clearly, the solution is to declare sovereign default. That way, fundamentalists will be the first ones to demand the removal of God's name from the face of failed currency. :twisted:
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Malthrax » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:33 pm

Passionario wrote:
Shoju wrote:And because I feel that way, I also feel that In God we trust should be removed from our money


Clearly, the solution is to declare sovereign default. That way, fundamentalists will be the first ones to demand the removal of God's name from the face of failed currency. :twisted:


As long as they let me know in advance, so I can convert my retirement portfolio into gold bullion first.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:36 pm

[side rant about retirement portfolios]
Heh, I started buying gold and silver when gold was ~450 an ounce, and silver was ~8 an ounce. I've been debating when I should turn around and make a profit on my investment.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nooska » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:58 pm

The way things are looking the price will (with minor fluctuations) simply go up.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Malthrax » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:59 pm

Nooska wrote:The way things are looking the price will (with minor fluctuations) simply go up.


noooooo!!! it needs a mid/low 20's bounce first. me wants bai moar.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:03 pm

Speaking strictly from an opposites point of view, I believe the opposite of having "In God We Trust" on the currency would be to print "There is no god" on the currency. The middle ground would be to make no reference to either claim on the currency - basically to abstain from the argument.

And from that perspective, I would be on the side of removing the text, so that the currency stays out of the theistic/atheistic argument where it doesn't belong in the first place.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:11 pm

Koatanga wrote:Speaking strictly from an opposites point of view, I believe the opposite of having "In God We Trust" on the currency would be to print "There is no god" on the currency. The middle ground would be to make no reference to either claim on the currency - basically to abstain from the argument.

And from that perspective, I would be on the side of removing the text, so that the currency stays out of the theistic/atheistic argument where it doesn't belong in the first place.


As I just posted in a PM to someone, this is where I'm at. I think the government's official stance on religion should be short, sweet, and to the point:


"As long as you aren't infringing on the rights of another human being, have at it".

Nothing more, nothing less. No wading into the theological past that. BAsically, if you aren't killing people, or oppressing people, or doing someting else blatantly illegal, your religion is fine, and we wont bother it.

But that's my opinion, and only my opinion.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:05 am

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:06 pm

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:50 pm

"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:48 am

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:13 pm

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/09/family-first-nz-forgot-to-renew-its-domain-name-lost-it-to-pro-gay-marriage-group/

LOL

I second the LOL.

However, I do wish to point out one inaccuracy of the article - the NZ political climate is nothing like the US one. In NZ, same-sex couples can get legal standing as a Civil Union, which has every right a married couple has except the ability to jointly adopt a child, and to be called a marriage. We're looking to give same-sex couples the actual marriage rights so they can be truly equal.

Additionally, our right-wing groups would be considered moderate, and even liberal, in the US.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:21 pm

MOderate to Liberal, and still fighting Same Sex Marriage?

/head explodes.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:36 pm

Shoju wrote:MOderate to Liberal, and still fighting Same Sex Marriage?

/head explodes.

It's a religious/social issue, not a political one. It has been politicised, which in the US means one party espouses it therefore the other party must oppose it - US politics hates bipartisan issues.

Have a read at this article:

http://www.allegiancemusical.com/blog-entry/gorilla-their-midst
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Aubade » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:26 pm

http://conservapedia.com/Homosexual

This is so bad it's almost funny....
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Levantine » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:46 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/09/family-first-nz-forgot-to-renew-its-domain-name-lost-it-to-pro-gay-marriage-group/

LOL

I second the LOL.

However, I do wish to point out one inaccuracy of the article - the NZ political climate is nothing like the US one. In NZ, same-sex couples can get legal standing as a Civil Union, which has every right a married couple has except the ability to jointly adopt a child, and to be called a marriage. We're looking to give same-sex couples the actual marriage rights so they can be truly equal.

Additionally, our right-wing groups would be considered moderate, and even liberal, in the US.


It's an Australian website, not a US one.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:00 pm

Levantine wrote:It's an Australian website, not a US one.

Australia, US - same thing; they both suck at rugby.

But the point stands - our political climates are not alike. NZ has legally recognised gay couples for years, and is seeking to do away with the last distinction.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Levantine » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:29 pm

You're good at focusing on singular points to the exclusion and flat out blind and willful ignorance of any others, aren'tcha. Outside of gay marriage Aus and NZ political climates are quite similar. My entire mother's side of the family resides in New Zealand, and why I don't know from first hand experience due to living in Australia, I hear enough to be able to draw a significant number of parallels.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:11 am

Levantine wrote:You're good at focusing on singular points to the exclusion and flat out blind and willful ignorance of any others, aren'tcha. Outside of gay marriage Aus and NZ political climates are quite similar. My entire mother's side of the family resides in New Zealand, and why I don't know from first hand experience due to living in Australia, I hear enough to be able to draw a significant number of parallels.

Nah actually I didn't go back and re-read the article. Now that I did it definitely does say NZ is similar to "ours" meaning Aus, so I would agree with that. For some reason I thought it was comparing to the US.

But yeah, Aus is close to NZ in many more ways than mere geography. Apart from rugby prowess, of course.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:47 am

Koatanga wrote:
Shoju wrote:MOderate to Liberal, and still fighting Same Sex Marriage?

/head explodes.

It's a religious/social issue, not a political one. It has been politicised, which in the US means one party espouses it therefore the other party must oppose it - US politics hates bipartisan issues.

Have a read at this article:

http://www.allegiancemusical.com/blog-entry/gorilla-their-midst


Oh, I'm familiar with the article. I love what he wrote. It's just really difficult to separate the mainstream conservatives in the US from issues like same sex marriage anymore, because religious fundamentalism is, like Takei said, the gorilla in the republican's living room.

My comment was more of a "satire" at the state of american politics.

I guess part of me also hoped, that since NZ already had civil unions, that the move to "marriage" was a mere formality.

Sulu wrote:For a party that prides itself on less government intrusion, it sure seems busy these days telling women and LGBT persons what they can and cannot do. This is not only inconsistent, it is a poor strategy for keeping the party strong, growing, and current


I love that line.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:23 pm

Am I the only one who voiced that quote with Takei's actual voice?
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:08 pm

I rad the whole blog in the "Holo-gramps" voice from Supah Ninjas.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:23 am

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--maryl ... riage.html

1.) I think it's awesome that an NFL player, a sport normally known for it's machismo, not its sensitivity, supports gay marriage.

2.) I think it's incredibly sad that the politician is such a freaking wanker about wanting the owner to tell his player to STFU
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