LGBT rights discussion

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:04 am

Brekkie wrote:I'll sit down and right you a PM later tonight.


ooh ooh me too, I am interested in this topic
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:41 am

Maybe just make it into a new thread?
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:44 am

it would be better then everyone getting PMs from our favorite overseas marine :)
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Sagara » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:50 am

Think so too - this topic has slided to religion often already.

Still, best be careful, that is THE topic that goes FUBAR very easy...
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Aubade » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:13 pm

Forward me that PM? I'm interested =O
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:32 pm

Quite interested as well. o/
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Brekkie » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:26 pm

Lol, I'll just make a new thread. Should have time this evening.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:58 pm

Brekkie wrote:It also specifically endorses Monotheism, which almost half the world's population doesn't subscribe to.
And those things were artificially inserted very recently, less than a single lifespan ago. The whole "this is a Christian nation" thing has no basis in history, it is purely revisionism as a backlash against rising secularism.

So yes, I do consider those things rather extreme. Not that they are really a big deal by themselves, but they are indicators of extremist sentiment.


Shoju wrote:Actually, the use of the word God, when given a captial "G" to and used as a proper noun, is typically only used to reference the Judeo-Christian God, of the Christian, Jewish, Muslim faiths, and it's a little sketchy on Islam, since they normally reference him as "Allah", even though Allah and God are translations of the same word.

That leaves out some pretty "popular" religions throughout society.


Well to be clear, so that my position isn't being improperly framed (as it looks like it is), I'm not particularly in favor of those slogans. I certainly wouldn't be in favor of them being added now if I was given the choice.

However, there's some significant inaccuracies in some of that. First, that slogan has been on coins for about 150 years. Yes, "under God" was a recent addition to the pledge, some 55 years ago, but that's hardly the whole picture.

God is frequently capitalized when referring to a specific diety. In fact I'm currently reading The Omen Machine (fantasy fiction) which capitalizes any reference to that world's "god", even when the reference is merely a pronoun like He or His.

I wasn't around in the mid 1800's, but I'm skeptical that that sort of reference to God was typical among any of the three religions you mentioned, in fact I think each would use a different term. It doesn't seem to be a particularly great fit for any of them.

I think those are pretty vague open ended slogans really. I mean you can take it to mean really whatever you want, though I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that it's endorsing monotheism to the exclusion of other religions (I'm not even sure Christianity is properly classified as monotheistic, but that's an entirely different topic). Certainly they endorse the notion of a higher power, but it's really hard to argue that that notion is not part of our founding. That the basis for many laws of man don't have such origins. That it wasn't a very significant part of our culture, or even isn't today.

They aren't proselytizing (which is what I think would be required to balance out that image of extremism) they are merely slogans that reference a concept long accepted in our government and very popular in our culture. While I don't really think the government ought to be using them, the notion that they are somehow extreme seems utterly silly to me.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Malthrax » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:29 am

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, ... and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves

AHMAGHERD!! DEM BLESSINGS DHEY BHURN!!


When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

2.1 We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.


Sheesh... can't even get TWO SENTENCES into a political document without "Righty" throwing around his "GOD" crap... :roll:
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:12 am

Brekkie wrote:Living in fundamentalist Muslim countries really opened my eyes about America. We act so horrified by Islamic extremism, but yet we do some of the exact same things and hold some of the exact same attitudes. Yet that is somehow OK because it's the "right" religion. Screw that.


Well Said, and I would love to hear about it in another thread even. I'm a "religion nut", not a "religious nut" so to speak, and I've been fascinated by fundamentalist cultures.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:15 am

Should be noted that what you believe in is more often than not determined by where you or your parents were born..
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:40 am

Malthrax wrote:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, ... and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves

AHMAGHERD!! DEM BLESSINGS DHEY BHURN!!


When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

2.1 We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.


Sheesh... can't even get TWO SENTENCES into a political document without "Righty" throwing around his "GOD" crap... :roll:

1) Blessings aren't exclusively religious.
2) Nature's God covers any religion/group that has a god of nature (athiests being excluded by definition.)
3) Creator covering any religion/group that believes in a creator.

None of those seem right wing to me. Then again neither does "In God We Trust." I suppose it should also be noted with US money, that phrase is in all caps, so you can't legitimately claim it is God as opposed to god.

That all being said, perhaps it was being directed towards Christianity when the decision was made to include those words, but as with any document, the true meaning tends to get lost over time.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Flex » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:49 am

Klaudandus wrote:Should be noted that what you believe in is more often than not determined by where you or your parents were born..


Which is why the Steelers plague will never end. People can't wait to get out of that state and it spreads!
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:34 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I wasn't around in the mid 1800's, but I'm skeptical that that sort of reference to God was typical among any of the three religions you mentioned, in fact I think each would use a different term. It doesn't seem to be a particularly great fit for any of them.


God, is the literal English translation of names given to "God" in the Holy Bible. While I'm not going to go searching to find out what he has been called forever, I can point out that since 1611, when the "Official" King James Translation of the bible was set forth, The term God was used in place of Jehovah / Yahweh in the Bible.

There is some debate that Judaeism has been replacing "God's Name" with "The Lord", or with "God" for even longer than that, since they feel that his name is too holy, too sacred, too important, to speak regularly.

Arabic Speaking Muslims are more apt to refer to "him" as Allah which, like I posted earlier, is the literal Arabic word for God. Many English Speaking Muslims will still reference him as Allah, but will also refer to him as God as well. If need be, I can track down sources on this.

Fridmarr wrote:I think those are pretty vague open ended slogans really. I mean you can take it to mean really whatever you want, though I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that it's endorsing monotheism to the exclusion of other religions (I'm not even sure Christianity is properly classified as monotheistic, but that's an entirely different topic). Certainly they endorse the notion of a higher power, but it's really hard to argue that that notion is not part of our founding. That the basis for many laws of man don't have such origins. That it wasn't a very significant part of our culture, or even isn't today.


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Christianity falls under monotheism, even if they believe in "God the Father" "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit", because they believe that each incarnation is just that, an incarnation of the same singular omniscient, omnipresent entity.
End Side Rant

Looking back at the time when "In God We Trust" was added to our Currency (1864), It's origins are believed to lie in the fourth stanza of the Star Spangled Banner, written in 1812.

You can claim that it doesn't "reference the Christian God" but History unfortunately does not agree with you:

The Reverend M. R. Watkinson, as part of a campaign initiated by eleven northern Protestant Christian denominations in a letter dated November 13, 1861, petitioned the Treasury Department to add a statement recognising "Almighty God in some form in our coins."[7] At least part of the motivation was to declare that God was on the Union side of the Civil War.[8] According to Brian Burrell, the actual wording of the motto was inspired by a Union Civil War unit's company motto.[9][10]


Protestant Churches were behind the initial proposal. And if you don't want to believe a wikipedia article, because of it's editability, You can take it up with the United States of America Treasury's Historians

Fridmarr wrote:They aren't proselytizing (which is what I think would be required to balance out that image of extremism) they are merely slogans that reference a concept long accepted in our government and very popular in our culture. While I don't really think the government ought to be using them, the notion that they are somehow extreme seems utterly silly to me.


In a society such as what existed in the 1860's, no. Not Extreme. IN a society such as what existed in the 1950's, probably not. In a society like what we have today, 62 years later, It may not be extreme yet, but culture polls would suggest that the United States is far less "Christian" than it was previously.



EDIT

Sagara wrote:I suppose it should also be noted with US money, that phrase is in all caps, so you can't legitimately claim it is God as opposed to god.


Not Always True. When the slogan was first set forth, it wasn't always in all caps.

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This is the reverse of the Morgan Silver Dollar. A coin with which, I am very familiar with, as it comprises most of the numismatic knowledge that I have accumulated. As you can see, Clearly, The I in "In", and the G in "God" were the only capital letters placed in the phrase. This coin is an 1895, but the Morgan Silver Dollar Design was implemented in 1878, and ran until 1921 (with a break from 1904 to 1921) with no change in design.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:19 pm

While pursuing this fun and interesting sideline, I'd like to note that the New Zealand national anthem mentions God 11 times (capitalised). However, it's not the Jewish or Christian god or even a real deity - it's some theoretical "God of Nations".

As of 2006, 42% of New Zealanders listed "no religion" or "not stated" for their religion. We are a godless lot down here.
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