A Call to Arms  MoP Mechanics Testing
Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd
Re: A Call to Arms  MoP Mechanics Testing
Ranseur of Hatred normal speed 3.6
Todays log:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rtx ... details/0/
106+99+79=284 procs from 4427 melee attacks, proc rate of 284/4427=6.42%.
Yesterdays 3.6 log:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt49x9tthdgqvqyeac/
31+30+28=89 procs from 1675 melee attacks, proc rate of 5.31%.
Total:
89+284=373 procs from 6102 melee attacks, proc rate of 373/6102=6.11%.
I'm most likely been dense but could you explain how it can be a PPM mechanic but not have a ICD, is it somehow normalized based on weapon speed? If so how are special attacks that can proc it worked in?
Todays log:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rtx ... details/0/
106+99+79=284 procs from 4427 melee attacks, proc rate of 284/4427=6.42%.
Yesterdays 3.6 log:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt49x9tthdgqvqyeac/
31+30+28=89 procs from 1675 melee attacks, proc rate of 5.31%.
Total:
89+284=373 procs from 6102 melee attacks, proc rate of 373/6102=6.11%.
I'm most likely been dense but could you explain how it can be a PPM mechanic but not have a ICD, is it somehow normalized based on weapon speed? If so how are special attacks that can proc it worked in?
Daishan of <Nidor Amo Nex>
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it."  Terry Pratchett
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it."  Terry Pratchett

daishan  Maintankadonor
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Re: A Call to Arms  MoP Mechanics Testing
xstratax wrote:Im following your Blog Theck, and using your DR values and formulae to write my macros and addons, but nothing seems to line up.
 Code: Select all
baseAvoid + (1/Ca + k/A)^1
Ca is just replaced with the appropriate stat, as is A (preDR of course)
the numbers I got off your blog:
 Code: Select all
k = .855
Cb = 1.491
Cd = 65.63144
Cp = 235.5
When I run these formulae on beta my dodge is always ~.1% lower than expected, but is still higher than its PreDR value. My sample sets are likely not as good as yours, but range from 7.65% Character sheet Dodge to 9.06%. I get similar, but more profound discrepancies with Block. At 24.99% Mastery, the formula says I should have 1.416% PostDR Block, but the tooltip shows 36.65% (including Base Block).
My gut says that tooltips are wildly inaccurate, but the Block DR formula still feels too harsh (mostly considering the fact that Mastery is still quite valuable on your TDR list)
I'm guessing it's a unit consistency issue. For example, if you express Cd in percent instead of decimal, then you have to do the same with avoidance. As an example, 10% preDR dodge should give you:
1/(1/65.63144+0.885/10)=9.6398% postdr dodge. Add that to the base 3.01 to get 12.65% on the character sheet.
Similarly for block. 24.99% mastery should give:
1/(1/149.1+0.885/24.99)=23.7411% postDR. We have 13% base block (10% from GbtL, 3% base), for a total of 23.74+13=36.74%.
If you incorrectly use 1.491 and 24.99 in the formulas simultaneously, you get the 1.416% result.
I usually do everything in decimals, i.e.:
 Code: Select all
Cd=0.65631440; %Diminishing Returns C coefficient  dodge
Cp=2.32; %Diminishing Returns C coefficient  parry
Cb=1.491; %Diminishing Returns C coefficient  block
But either way works as long as you stay consistent. Not sure why the character sheet is saying 36.65% instead of 36.74%; it's possible they've slightly tweaked the block DR coefficient since we last tested it. That sort of thing doesn't usually make it into patch notes. It's easy enough for me to refit it if someone gives me data.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
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Re: A Call to Arms  MoP Mechanics Testing
daishan wrote:theckhd wrote:First log:
36+43+29=108 procs from 2478 melee attacks. Proc rate of 108/2478=4.36%.
Where do you count the procs?
I look at the buffs gained http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rtr ... details/0/ and see 46 haste, 43 crit, and 29 Mast = 118/2478 = 4.76%
No idea what I did to get 5.14% first time round.
Same place you did. But apparently I typoed 46 into 36. Fixing that gives me the same 4.76% you got. Still no idea how you got 5.14%, but it was likely a similar error.
daishan wrote:Ranseur of Hatred normal speed 3.6
Todays log:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rtx ... details/0/
106+99+79=284 procs from 4427 melee attacks, proc rate of 284/4427=6.42%.
Yesterdays 3.6 log:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt49x9tthdgqvqyeac/
31+30+28=89 procs from 1675 melee attacks, proc rate of 5.31%.
Total:
89+284=373 procs from 6102 melee attacks, proc rate of 373/6102=6.11%.
I'm most likely been dense but could you explain how it can be a PPM mechanic but not have a ICD, is it somehow normalized based on weapon speed? If so how are special attacks that can proc it worked in?
PPM mechanics don't have an ICD. They use your weapon speed to determine a proc rate in order to normalize for weapon speed.
For example, if I have a 3.6speed weapon, the proc rate for a 1 PPM enchant is
PPM*weapon_speed/seconds_per_minute = 1*3.6/60 = 0.06 = 6%.
A 3 PPM enchant would have a proc rate three times higher, or 3*3.6/60=18%. If we changed to a 2.6speed weapon, the 3PPM proc rate would drop accordingly: 3*2.6/60 = 13%.
Special attacks that can proc it are a free bonus  they use exactly the same proc rate as white attacks. So while we generally use only melee attacks to determine the proc rate, in practice you'll get significantly more procs per minute than the given PPM value. In the case of Ret, you might get 3x as many (because their swing time is much longer than the GCD). Prot usually only gets 1.52x as many because more of our attacks are spells and our swing timer isn't as long compared to the GCD.
In any case, the combined data sets you provided solidify Windsong as 1 PPM. Proc rate of 0.0611 with a 3.6speed weapon. The 95% confidence interval is 1.96*sqrt(0.0611*(10.0611)/6102) = 0.006 = 0.6%. So we feel pretty confident the proc rate is between 5.51% and 6.71%, which rules out the flat 5% proc hypothesis.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
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Re: A Call to Arms  MoP Mechanics Testing
How many Mastery points do you need to get an accurate model of the coefficient? And how much of a difference should there be, I think I could possibly get a bunch of plot points between my Ret, PvP, and Tank items.
 xstratax
 Maintankadonor
 Posts: 118
 Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:18 pm
Re: Colossus Proc Log
xstratax wrote:I didnt get access to the MT WoL guild, so I used my own if thats ok.
60 minute Parse, Colossus enchanted, 2.6s weapon:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rtjtvd3j1cds3274tq/details/4/
If you need more details, I would be happy to provide them.
153 procs in (1180+97+84)=1361 attacks. Proc rate of 11.24%, 95% confidence interval of +/1.68%.
This one's a little troubling, because 2 PPM would be 8.67% and 3 PPM would be 13%. It's possible that we're undercounting the procs though, because in my experience WoL tends to ignore refreshes in the buff count tally. Still, it seems unlikely that we're missing almost 24 procs.
There's also the possibility that it's using normalized weapon speed, which would give a proc rate of 3*2.4/60=12%. That also seems unlikely, given that I don't think any weapon enchant has done that since.. Wrath? BC? I can't even remember.
We'll probably need more data to nail this one down. Unfortunately, to determine it to the required accuracy (+/ 0.5% would be ideal), it's going to take 15k melee swings...
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
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Re: A Call to Arms  MoP Mechanics Testing
xstratax wrote:How many Mastery points do you need to get an accurate model of the coefficient? And how much of a difference should there be, I think I could possibly get a bunch of plot points between my Ret, PvP, and Tank items.
It only took us ~16 data points last time:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... vSlE#gid=1
Ideally we want points ranging from naked to as high a mastery value as you can get. Ideally we'd want to reach 25% mastery, if possible. The higher a mastery% you can achieve, the more accurately we'll be able to determine Cb.
If you email/PM me your google account, I can give you access to that document and you can enter the data directly.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
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Re: A Call to Arms  MoP Mechanics Testing
Thx for the explanation Theck.
I'll leave beta live logging over night to http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rtg706k3rd2dl8wfsb/ with Colossus enchanted on a 2.6 speed wep.
I'll leave beta live logging over night to http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rtg706k3rd2dl8wfsb/ with Colossus enchanted on a 2.6 speed wep.
Daishan of <Nidor Amo Nex>
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it."  Terry Pratchett
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it."  Terry Pratchett

daishan  Maintankadonor
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 Location: UK
Re: A Call to Arms  MoP Mechanics Testing
New test request, #41. Should be a pretty simple one, provided you can tailor the gear to meet the requirements (0% hit, 15% exp)
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
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Re: A Call to Arms  MoP Mechanics Testing
Based on xtratax's data, the block DR equation hasn't changed.
Klaud's data set:
xtratax's data set:
Combining the two:
May update Cb from 149.1 to 149.2, but that's not a very significant change.
Klaud's data set:
 Code: Select all
General model:
f(x) = 13+1/(1/C+0.885/x)
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
C = 149.1 (148.7, 149.4)
Goodness of fit:
SSE: 0.0006184
Rsquare: 1
Adjusted Rsquare: 1
RMSE: 0.006421
xtratax's data set:
 Code: Select all
General model:
f(x) = 13+1/(1/C+0.885/x)
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
C = 149.3 (149.1, 149.5)
Goodness of fit:
SSE: 0.00028
Rsquare: 1
Adjusted Rsquare: 1
RMSE: 0.004641
Combining the two:
 Code: Select all
General model:
f(x) = 13+1/(1/C+0.885/x)
Coefficients (with 95% confidence bounds):
C = 149.2 (149.1, 149.4)
Goodness of fit:
SSE: 0.0009435
Rsquare: 1
Adjusted Rsquare: 1
RMSE: 0.005704
May update Cb from 149.1 to 149.2, but that's not a very significant change.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
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Re: Colossus Proc Log
theckhd wrote:We'll probably need more data to nail this one down. Unfortunately, to determine it to the required accuracy (+/ 0.5% would be ideal), it's going to take 15k melee swings...
Looks like I'll be leaving my beta running overnight. Should I continue to avoid Haste, or would using Hasted swing times help rule out other mechanics? Also do you want 1 hand weapons still, or should I go 2 hand for the 3.6 base swing speed?
EDIT:
Nvm Daishan beat me to it
 xstratax
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Re: A Call to Arms  MoP Mechanics Testing
Hehe I stole the test
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rtg706k3rd2dl8wfsb/
colossus enchant with 2.6 speed wep.
Didn't quite get 15k hits before the weapon broke.
1140 procs / 13564 melee attacks = 8.4% proc rate
Looks pretty close to 2PPM,
If we add in Xstratax's data (153+1140)/(1361+13564)= 8.66% that's almost spot on.
Will we need any data from a slow weapon to confirm?
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rtg706k3rd2dl8wfsb/
colossus enchant with 2.6 speed wep.
Didn't quite get 15k hits before the weapon broke.
1140 procs / 13564 melee attacks = 8.4% proc rate
Looks pretty close to 2PPM,
If we add in Xstratax's data (153+1140)/(1361+13564)= 8.66% that's almost spot on.
Will we need any data from a slow weapon to confirm?
Daishan of <Nidor Amo Nex>
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it."  Terry Pratchett
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it."  Terry Pratchett

daishan  Maintankadonor
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Re: A Call to Arms  MoP Mechanics Testing
daishan wrote:Will we need any data from a slow weapon to confirm?
It would be nice to have a little data from a 3.6speed weapon, yeah. Luckily we should only need around 1000 melee swings this time, since we just need to show that 8.66% is outside the confidence interval.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
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Re: A Call to Arms  MoP Mechanics Testing
Kk, I'll do some after work unless someone beats me to it.
Daishan of <Nidor Amo Nex>
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it."  Terry Pratchett
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it."  Terry Pratchett

daishan  Maintankadonor
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Re: A Call to Arms  MoP Mechanics Testing
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rti ... details/0/
3.6 speed Weapon
205/1254=16.3%
2*3.6/60=12%
If I've done that right it looks to be quite a long way out, though guess it is a small sample size.
3.6 speed Weapon
205/1254=16.3%
2*3.6/60=12%
If I've done that right it looks to be quite a long way out, though guess it is a small sample size.
Daishan of <Nidor Amo Nex>
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it."  Terry Pratchett
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it."  Terry Pratchett

daishan  Maintankadonor
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Re: A Call to Arms  MoP Mechanics Testing
Without any additional haste, the cooldown of Crusader Strike is reduced to 3.46 seconds when timewarp and Bloodlust are applied. I did not have any haste rating on my gear at the time. I mention this because you sounded fairly sure that it wouldn't when we were chatting a couple of weeks ago.
Unholy Aura (10% melee attack speed) does not change the cooldown.
So with a bit of haste, bloodlust will give us almost (or exactly, depending on your haste level) full ShoR uptime for the 40 seconds. Which is kinda crazy tbh.
Unholy Aura (10% melee attack speed) does not change the cooldown.
So with a bit of haste, bloodlust will give us almost (or exactly, depending on your haste level) full ShoR uptime for the 40 seconds. Which is kinda crazy tbh.
Last edited by Fetzie on Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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