Paladin tanking specs for MoP

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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby xstratax » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:44 pm

Unless they have removed Runspeed boot enchants, I find LAotL a far superior option. It may not be as fast as SoL, but it has a 50% uptime (assuming we Judge on CD), giving it an average speed just above PoJ. It just seems like it will always be up when you need to haul ass out of trouble.

I am really torn on EF vs SS, the ability to stack SS is what has me waiting to see if theres going to be some sort of math that changes my mind in either direction. EF feels like it will be the stronger option if you have another paladin around to SS you, and also helps to lower the sustained healing you require, not by much, but every bit can help. Purity vs Unbreakable Spirit similarly feels like it will depend on the fight mechanics as well as on if you have another paladin to cover Purity for you.

I feel like the recent change to SW makes it MUCH stronger than the other options (which makes me sad, as I enjoyed DPurp, it made the rotation fun and interesting). Unlike HA it increases ALL healing and damage by 20%, which just makes AW such a powerful CD for us, Its a huge damage buff, a slowfall (glyph), a healing buff, and a slight boost to HPG and Active Mitigation as a result.

For our L90s I really like Prism, it has so much utility and a low enough CD that using it doesnt feel like I will waste it at the wrong time. It also is a great ability to have for AoE burst threat. Prism alone makes me think that we might be the best class for AoE pick up (even though I hear Warrior AoE threat is crazy high once they get the mobs to stick). The healing aspect just is cake to me.

All that said, I am certain that I will change things with each fight so that I can be at the top of my game.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby theckhd » Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:52 pm

I disagree with you on two of those points. EF is fairly weak compared to SS because it has a significant opportunity cost (namely HP). You'd be wasting WoG and BoG stacks if you tried to maintain the EF buff full time, whereas SS costs you nothing in terms of survivability.

Similarly, I think HA is still stronger than SW in most situations. 20% additional healing is nice, but HA gives you 21+ seconds of continuous SotR uptime. Note also that AW is a 3-minute cooldown while HA is a 2-minute cooldown.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby Treck » Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:08 am

Xequecal wrote:I don't know about you, but I don't have enough hotkeys as it is to bind all the necessary skills, there's no way I can add more actives. Even with Ctrl + 1-5, Shift + 1-5, all the numbers, and the entire left half of the keyboard (Q, E, R, T, Y, F, G, Z, X, C, V, B, N) bound to abilities, you still can't get everything and have to resort to mouse-clicking on some of the less-used stuff. I have no idea where I'm going to bind another half-dozen (Sacred Shield, Holy Avenger, Speed of Light, Blinding Flash, Holy Prism, Symbiosis) actives. This problem alone is going to push me away from stuff like Speed of Light or Hand of Purity even if they are superior.

I thought this would be a problem as well, but fact is that we have pretty much lost more abilities than we gained in MoP.
Prot doesnt have inq, exorsism is also ret exlusive, we dont have our second taunt, we dont have holy radiance (for those who like to be able to throw one in when OTing during heavy aoe or whatever), we dont have hole shield anymore either, we lost divine plea as well, all in all we prolly gained as many as we lost or so.

I find 1-5+q+e and shift 1-5+shift q and shift e, coupled with 5 mousebuttons with 3 of them to have shift modifications to be more than enough on beta.

Personally, I use my SS where I had Holy shield, Holy avenger where I had Divine plea, Speed of light where I had Righteous Defense, Blinding Light where I had Holy radiance (I dont really see it as a panic button, and its pretty useless for raids) Lvl90 talent where I had Inq, and Symbiosis where I had exorsism.

xstratax wrote:Unless they have removed Runspeed boot enchants, I find LAotL a far superior option. It may not be as fast as SoL, but it has a 50% uptime (assuming we Judge on CD), giving it an average speed just above PoJ. It just seems like it will always be up when you need to haul ass out of trouble.

Things is that there is very few fights you have to run that much, Take Dragonsoul for example, I would only even consider LAotL on Spine IF you are kiting, and there id still prolly value Pursuit of justice, since when you run, you save up 3x HP.
LAotL sideeffect is that you sometimes run pretty fast, then suddenly you are freaking slow as hell.
Personally Id just SoL on all DS bosses, during the rare times you need to move, you wanna be able to sprint.
MoP has many bosses, and LAotL does have its uses, but compared to the other two, its likely to only be used on a fight or two.

xstratax wrote:I am really torn on EF vs SS, the ability to stack SS is what has me waiting to see if theres going to be some sort of math that changes my mind in either direction. EF feels like it will be the stronger option if you have another paladin around to SS you, and also helps to lower the sustained healing you require, not by much, but every bit can help.

The main differance between EF vs SS is that they work differently.
EF is more healing per sec on you, while SS is more PREVENTED dmg on you.
Over all EF will have higher numbers compared to healing done vs absorbed damage, but EF does nothing to you during big hitters, doesnt tick very fast either.
SS with the new vengeance mechanic is going to scale up to 100k per absorb, and you can reapply SS whenever you want to be sure its up, since SS only absorbs dmg every 6 sec, if you refresh SS right after the 6sec shield is bursted, you get another shield instantly, preparing for bursts.
And SS makes you keep your WoG for oh shit situations, sure reapplying a new EF does do an insta heal as well, but you might not always have 5x bastions if you are reapplying EF just to survive with the burst heal.

xstratax wrote:Purity vs Unbreakable Spirit similarly feels like it will depend on the fight mechanics as well as on if you have another paladin to cover Purity for you.

Yeh, completely fight dependant HoP clearly wins on fights its works on, unbreakable is good overall, Clemency is weird atm on beta, but throwing out 2x Hand of Sacrifices in a row isnt that bad, or 2x HoP, or even freedom if people were slowed.

xstratax wrote:I feel like the recent change to SW makes it MUCH stronger than the other options (which makes me sad, as I enjoyed DPurp, it made the rotation fun and interesting). Unlike HA it increases ALL healing and damage by 20%, which just makes AW such a powerful CD for us, Its a huge damage buff, a slowfall (glyph), a healing buff, and a slight boost to HPG and Active Mitigation as a result.

What theckhd said, HA has lower CD, and pretty much guarantees 100% uptime on shield buff, thats pretty insane for several fights to ensure there will be no burst hits on you, 20% healing from SW is nice and all, but it goes the same discussion as EF vs SS, HA prevents damage, while SW makes you easier to top up again.

xstratax wrote:For our L90s I really like Prism, it has so much utility and a low enough CD that using it doesnt feel like I will waste it at the wrong time. It also is a great ability to have for AoE burst threat. Prism alone makes me think that we might be the best class for AoE pick up (even though I hear Warrior AoE threat is crazy high once they get the mobs to stick). The healing aspect just is cake to me.

After doing some heavy aoe testing, Holy prism is like one fifth as effective as Lights hammer, that said Consecration is lots better anyway.
Prism does have the advantage that it heals you, so its worth considering.
Lights hammer you can be royaly screwed over if you have to move right after you put it down.
And Prism does have the "snap" threat that is nice to have, that said, its still not really that great compared to other classes aoe snap threat.
For Utility Lights hammer is also very decent for helping with healing if theres not much to aoe.
And Execution sentance is pretty sick damage once you have some vengeance, but its not snap threat so just sorta part of your rotation.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby Xequecal » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:39 pm

I thought this would be a problem as well, but fact is that we have pretty much lost more abilities than we gained in MoP.
Prot doesnt have inq, exorsism is also ret exlusive, we dont have our second taunt, we dont have holy radiance (for those who like to be able to throw one in when OTing during heavy aoe or whatever), we dont have hole shield anymore either, we lost divine plea as well, all in all we prolly gained as many as we lost or so.

I find 1-5+q+e and shift 1-5+shift q and shift e, coupled with 5 mousebuttons with 3 of them to have shift modifications to be more than enough on beta.


This is what I have now:

1 - Crusader Strike
2 - SotR
3 - HotR
4 - Rebuke
5 - Judgment
6 - Holy Wrath
7 - HoJ
8 - Taunt
9 - AE Taunt
0 - Plea
- - GoAK
= - Divine Protection
S1 - Consecration
S2 - Divine Shield
S3 - LoH
S4 - Divine Guardian
S5 - Hammer of Wrath
C1 - Avenging Wrath
C2 - Stoneform
C3 - DS/Cancelaura/Taunt macro
C4 - Cleanse
C5 - Exorcism
Q - Ardent Defender
E - Holy Shield
G - Word of Glory
F - Freedom
T - Salvation
B - Protection
H - Sacrifice
V - Avenger's Shield
N - Trinket 1
Y - Trinket 2
Z - Engineering gloves
X - Turn Evil

Inquisition and Holy Radiance aren't even keybound, there's no slots left.

In MoP we lose Guardian, but the new Devo Aura takes that spot. Holy Shield, the AE taunt, and Plea are gone, but there are six new abilities (Prism, Sacred Shield, Speed of Light, Symbiosis, Blinding Light, Holy Avenger) that need keybinds. There's also Hand of Purity if I was going to spec that.

Flash of Light also deserves a keybind with the new Vengeance mechanic, if it's a 2+ tank fight Paladins are an excellent healer for 20 seconds after you get taunted off of and your Vengeance is still active. All of this combines to make me want to minimize new actives as much as possible.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby Treck » Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:02 pm

Shift+q/e are excelent binds as well.
And I really hope you are not reaching to 8 or 9 to taunt?
Also, inq has tons higher prio than 90% of those abilities, and if anything deseves to be bound seeing as its part of your rotation.
I have all blessings on shift+mousebutton 4-5-6 so i mouseover the target I put it on.
Salvation, freedom, HoJ, cleanse and rebuke really doesnt need to be binded in a raiding situation, unless the very fight requires one of these, then you simply drag thatone out there for that fight.
Personally I have a button that is like an all around button.
Where I need to interrupt, I move rebuke there, when I need to use the extra action button, I drag that macro there, Theres really no fight that requires HoJ/cleanse but if there is Ill drag those there.

This isnt the place to discuss everyones keybinds, but were loosing pretty much as many abilities we gain, but mainly some abilities gets a lot less usefull, even tho we still have them.

Also, dont forget that you dont have speed of light on every encounter, and you really shouldnt be getting symbiosis over someone who could actually use it.
And with enough vengeance to do 450k shieldlamms, I do like 120k Flash of lights, and since each one costs +30% of your mana, you can barely cast 3 before beeing oom. CS with oneHP WoG will prolly be more efficient, or popping SS on other people.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:21 pm

Xequecal wrote:This is what I have now:

1 - Crusader Strike
2 - SotR
3 - HotR
4 - Rebuke
5 - Judgment
6 - Holy Wrath
7 - HoJ
8 - Taunt
9 - AE Taunt Prism
0 - Plea SoL
- - GoAK
= - Divine Protection
S1 - Consecration
S2 - Divine Shield (does your C3 macro require multiple clicks to cancel?) if yes: Purity
S3 - LoH
S4 - Divine Guardian Devo Aura
S5 - Hammer of Wrath
C1 - Avenging Wrath
C2 - Stoneform
C3 - DS/Cancelaura/Taunt macro
C4 - Cleanse (does prot still have cleanse?) if no: Symbiosis
C5 - Exorcism Blinding Light
Q - Ardent Defender
E - Holy Shield SS
G - Word of Glory
F - Freedom
T - Salvation
B - Protection
H - Sacrifice
V - Avenger's Shield
N - Trinket 1
Y - Trinket 2
Z - Engineering gloves
X - Turn Evil (do you use this often enough to require a keybind?) if no: Holy Avenger

I think that covers pretty much everything but FoL. Though imo, if you want to use FoL, just click it on your bar. Obviously, you can put whatever you want in each slot, I was just lining up new stuff with removed stuff.

Also, if prot DOES have cleanse, I'd make the argument that your healers should be using it and it shouldn't be something you should worry about. If it is something you worry about... get decursive and just remove the spell from your bars/keybinds.

Edit: Can't you also use Alt as a modifier? That would open up all kinds of new options for keybinds.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby xstratax » Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:41 pm

Shift, Ctrl, and Alt can all be modifiers. I personally prefer to slim my onscreen bars by making Macros to put similar abilities together using [mod:]. CS and HotR are a perfect example, Live I have it on Q with a shift mod macro, helped to save space a lot. I tend to use Shift macros for CS & HotR, J & HoW, AS & HW, Rebuke & Arcane Torrent (Yes, I play a BElf) and ShoR & WoG. On beta I added HPr & Consc together, along with Taunt & SS. That shrinks 12 abilities into 6 slots pretty nicely with almost no additional effort required.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby Treck » Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:16 am

Skye1013 wrote:Also, if prot DOES have cleanse, I'd make the argument that your healers should be using it and it shouldn't be something you should worry about. If it is something you worry about... get decursive and just remove the spell from your bars/keybinds.

Yes prot still have cleanse, and its exactly as useless as it is on live.
There is no raid encounter in MoP where its usefull, and only thing would be if maybe its usefull in a dungeon, or pvp.
I havnt had it on my bars for ages, and I dont have it on my bars in MoP.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby ayashi » Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:28 pm

Treck wrote:Things is that there is very few fights you have to run that much, Take Dragonsoul for example, I would only even consider LAotL on Spine IF you are kiting, and there id still prolly value Pursuit of justice, since when you run, you save up 3x HP.
LAotL sideeffect is that you sometimes run pretty fast, then suddenly you are freaking slow as hell.
Personally Id just SoL on all DS bosses, during the rare times you need to move, you wanna be able to sprint.
MoP has many bosses, and LAotL does have its uses, but compared to the other two, its likely to only be used on a fight or two.

Damn, i wrote a 3 foot long post on SoL vs LAotL vs PoJ and it's gone due to me getting logged out of the forum section (T_T)
Basicaly:
-first the 8% enchant will be used by every tank, because it's the BiS (140mastery is better than 175hit is better than 175haste given thecks stat weights) which lowers the usefulness of the least speed increase with higher uptime (PoJ) compared to the more bursty talents.
-second SoL is overtaken by PoJ and LAotL after 11s of runing, and with it's 45s cd that 11s run is enough for all great movements in every fight from t13 down to t7 with the exceptions of 5 (valion solotank in 10m, A.council, specially when tanking Arion, HC Astramedes breath, maybe HC Abubarak spikes but i can't remember our tanks ever being targeted, maybe shannox (can't remember the speak CD, might be less than SoL's 45s but i doubt it))
-third, and i never seen the point being raised yet:
Prof speed boosts (Eng belt and alchi switft pot) work better covering SoL weakness (it's high cd) than remplacing SoL if you take LAotL/PoJ due to:
1) cost (eng = potencial health cost maybe even death; alchi= can't use a health/STR/armor pot which is roughtly equivalent to a WoG/SoR so very roughtly speaking 3HP usage cost),
2) cd (eng= 3min, Swift =once per fight)
The same can be said of Worgen/Goblin movement racials: they have no cost, but their CD make them work better with SoL.
-forth, LAotL vs PoJ: LAotL has a cost of 1HP due to saving up J for up to 6s, whereas PoJ will cost you 3HP (whereas SoL is free), moreover PoJ only overtakes LAotL after 4s (on a 6s timer !) which is more than enough for most small moves (ie: zonnoz middle of the room -> claw; madness corruption -> limb, or limb -> side of the plateform, ect...) and lastly LAotL can be used on pull "rush to the boss" which PoJ can't with the removal of Divine Peal 3HP talent from our toolbox.

As such i got to the conclusion:
SoL if the fight has a significant movement requirement or none at all (arguable better sprint to the boss).
LAotL has only frequent small movements where SoL sprint will be mostly wasted.

Note:
# Considering DKs best tool is a 6s 30% speed boost and tanks should be roughtly equal in most situations i'll go on a limb and presume that option 2 will be the vast majority of cases in MoP and anything that can be covered with a 6s 30% boost can be covered by LAotL too.
So SoL might be useful, but only exceptionally so.
I do realise that between what blizzard says and do there is a huge gap, as DS tank imbalance clearly shows on this subject. :lol:
# there is also the counter-argument that SoL is only a ~17% speed increase over LAotL, specially true for fights that have both big movements and frequent small ones, LAotL might be more efficient due to being able to cover small moves and still be pretty decent on big moves.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby Kihra » Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:41 pm

I think the mobility boosting talents are really well designed in that there are situations where I would want to use any of them. You just made a long post that arrived at the conclusion that Pursuit of Justice is the weakest talent. However, I think it depends entirely on the fight.

As an example, consider Will of the Emperor, I think Pursuit of Justice is the best talent to take on that fight. During the dance, you can maintain a 30% run speed throughout the entire duration of the dance, since you have no need to spend your Holy Power because you aren't taking any damage if you do it properly. That clearly beats Speed of Light, which won't last long enough for the dance, and Long Arm of the Law, which will give you bursts but follow them with periods of low mobility. Could you handle the dance fine with only run speed on your boots? Probably. Does Pursuit of Justice give you the most margin for error throughout the dance though? Absolutely.

I plan to just look at each fight on a case by case basis and make my choice then.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby stevos » Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:54 pm

Wouldn't not using holy power also mean you are doing very little damage. Taking no damage is great, but you still need to kill the boss.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby daishan » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:24 am

If it helps you get the button of awesomeness it would be worth some loss in dps, but don't forget it's just that you can't spend holy power and I think SotR is still fairly weak.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby ayashi » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:04 am

Well, considering it's a ~3% increase using PoJ(120% compared to unbuffed 108%) over LAotL (134% compared to unbuffed 108%, 50% uptime: average out at 117% speed) even if SoR "un-glyphed" (since you aren't blocking anything) is weak it's kind of debatable if it's really an improvement. Besides, does 3% speed actually help any ?
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:07 am

You're not running a marathon here - the average doesn't really mean anything.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby Kihra » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

If you have a segment of a fight that requires constant movement over a very prolonged period of time, then you have to consider that Long Arm of the Law only has 50% uptime. It may be that the 3 seconds it's not up end up biting you.

Note I'm just bringing up a very specific part of a single fight and pointing out that Pursuit of Justice is probably the best there. Not using SotR during the dance is a minimal damage loss, and of course doing the dance successfully (assuming everyone else does too) gets you the button of awesome damage. I'm presenting a situation where your movement speed can be a constant 130% throughout a high movement phase.

I think there are plenty of other cases where Pursuit of Justice is strong also. Treck brought up kiting on Spine. I would absolutely favor Pursuit of Justice for Spine kiting. You're no longer concerned with damage once you're kiting, and holding on to your Holy Power is something you can do.

In general, whether or not Pursuit of Justice is strong depends on whether or not there are situations where I can hold on to that Holy Power and not have to spend it. Fights that have very prolonged phases of movement (like Spine Kiting or Emperor Dancing) are great examples of where Pursuit of Justice wins IMO.
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