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Was it me or the MT?

Attumen, Moroes, Maiden, Opera, Curator, Illhoof, Aran, Netherspite, Chess, Prince, Nightbane

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Was it me or the MT?

Postby Big Mushy » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:09 pm

I was OT'ing for Kara last night and noticed a few problems, the MT was in a mix of greens and epics, some very low lvl gear (Shield of the void for eg) and unbuffed he barely had 12k health, and I walked into the group (it was a guild run and I was invited as they needed another tank) with 13k health unbuffed and before the first pull I sat and ate my food, popped the pots (I am taking a liking to Adept/fort) I figured I won't need my oils as I looked around the group and I doubted some would pull aggro from me. So here goes...

Pre Attunmen: They wouldn't let me OT, instead they felt that a shackle is more useful, but when we got to the first pull of 2 horses 2 stable hands the priest body aggroed when trying to shackle, and they were going to let him die and what looks like let it wipe, So I ran up to the priest and dropped consecrate and Just AoE'd them holding them so the DPS could focus fire, I wasn't spamming exorcism or anything and the tank yelled at me for tanking them all! I did my usual thing on a big pull when the mob is around 10% health I'll exorcise him once then turn to my next target to get some more threat in advance. So Then I was bluntly told I'm the OT and to only OT, and that after Kara I will be useless to everyone as prot (put a sour taste in my mouth esp for that guild who I was asked to join) so the next pull... the priest aggroed again... so I figured I won't tank them all and the tank tries to take 3 and I take what I was told to take but I stood near him and dropped my consecrate and he died in seconds! so I picked them all up and continued tanking them all (did I mention the tank had low health?) So we get to attunemen and I'm told to only tank midnight, so I pull and start my standard cast rotation, and the Tank was sundering him, and forgot about attunmen, he went straight for the paly healers and they were smart and bubbled out of it, then to the next healer, he bubbled and he ran to me, before the tank bothered to try and pick him up, so after all that we finish with 2 deaths and I was getting pretty annoyed at this stage, next pull I was told not to drop consecrate so the rogue and priest could CC... so of course a few died on that pull and I figured stuff it I'm grabbing as much as I can and holding them (I thought thats what I'm sposed to do keep the squishies alive?)

Anyway that was the first part of the fun, On the way to moroes was pretty easy as all I have to do is drop consecrate a lot so then we get to Moroes. I forget which of the guests we had but I know we had the MS warrior, it took 4 resets before we did anything even remotely useful and I was told to just OT moroes, nothing else, so after the run with attunemen I decided to do as I'm told, and I was on Moroes on a light cast rotation and the MS warrior was running around hitting every one, so I picked him up and pulled him back to me and started tanking him and moroes, after the MT was gouged he came to me which is sposed to happen so I was just holding him and the MS warrior, I don't know why or how but I ended up tanking him on a light cast rotation (Judge every 20-30 seconds no exorcising and cons every 15 seconds) so the MT tried taunting the MS warrior off me, and started complaining again as I was tanking both, and as soon as the adds were down I started to pump my threat, blew everything I had on moroes and just held him so again I was reminded that I'm only the OT and to stop pulling aggro...

On the way to maiden I did nothing, just put on my wannabe dps gear and for the actual fight within 3 seconds our main DPS was dead and she tried stomping on 2 healers (thank god they were palys and bubbled) after a messy start the MT picks up aggro and tank her (only fight that was semi smooth)

Opera time, and I bang tanks dead in seconds on the ushers... by this stage I'm thinking I should just leave the group as my repairs were climbing, but I stuck with it and we continued on, The opera event was BBW and after 6 wipes they decided that something needed to change (I was pulling aggro auto attacking, no tanking seals or judgements) The DPS made a lot of mistakes and wouldn't let the tank build aggro on him before they started nuking, esp during the running phase, Another 2 wipes and we repair and they tell me to tank him and let the warrior DPS, I told the dps to only white dmg during the running and it couldn't have gone smoother.

On to the curator, finally there was no problem with the trash except I was pulling aggro on auto attack (I think the tank wasn't decursed so he was missing a lot) so we get to the curator and they want me on flare duty and I'm thinking "huh?" so I was taking on the flares and by the end I was holding 6 before the DPS was taking them down (way too slow on the dps) (They have the soaker idea, 1 lock drain curator to take the bolts) everyone else on flares. so another 6 wipes on that and they decide to swap the warrior for a mage, and they did about 3 other swaps for the fight and they said for me to tank him, downed it first shot

On to Nightbane... thank god there was no trash I was getting really tired of this group by this stage. The warrior was back and I was told to dps so I kick back and just do a light cast rotation as I mentioned earlier and I kept pulling aggro on him so I was told to stop move him back to position and stop all dps, so I did and the tank picked him up after about 30 seconds, then the air phase began, I tanked all the skellys without a problem and as soon as he landed he went for a paly healer and 1 shotted him, he was the main healer so they called it as a wipe after another minute where things just got worse, next attempt exact same thing happened, and they were yelling at the paly healer for it he asked if there was an aggro wipe and he was bluntly told no, 4 more times this happens and we are all getting annoyed by this stage (the run had been going for about 5 hours so far) so I decided to just watch omen as he landed and sure enough there was an aggro clear, so when he landed the next time and ran for a healer I decided to throw an exorcism at him and what do you know the healer didn't die, I had 100% aggro so I figured I had him I'd move him back into position and go light dps so the tank can pick him up (as I was told) and it just went down hill from there, since I was not trying to build aggro and let the tank overtake me (seals and judge of light) the DPS decided to go all out, as soon as he turned to one of the dps I pumped my threat and made sure I wasn't going to lose him, next air phase and same thing happens, he targets a healer and I was told not to pick him up as the tank can't get aggro off me, so a healer dies... another several wipes and we decided to call it...

So after reading this almost book report was I in the wrong? All I did was try to keep the squishies alive and its not my fault I had 3k more health then the tank I'm not in the best gear but I'm geared enough to take a hell of a beating and I know how to hold my threat. I never tried to outshine the warrior, I just did my job I've OT'd Kara a few times before but I've never had such a bad run in my life (or more expensive on the repairs 60g from Kara alone) But I think its safe to say I won't be joining the guild after last night lol

:Edit: wow I didn't realise how long that was, sorry all for the rant but I'd love to know what I can do. Also I was told without speccing "Paly power" I'm useless what exactly is paly power? Only thing I can think of is Sanctity Aura, if thats what it is please let me know... Thanks again all!
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Postby Worldie » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:27 pm

I'll be honest.

From what you said, your "MT" was a complete idiot and uncapable of tanking. If you were pulling aggro from him by -autoattacks- there was something wrong.
I've met some warrior like this already, thinking that since they have epics they can tank. Then had to basically wand bosses cause in full kara epics they were putting out 400 < TPS.

You did your best, don't bother yourself. That warrior was a failure, i hope he is not a important tank in that guild.

You did your job, which was, doing what told, and possibly saving your squishies from the incompetence of that tank. I don't know how you resisted, i would have bubblehsned way before Curator probably.
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Postby Pizbit » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:26 pm

The warrior was an arse. A complete idiot and shouldn't be tanking past say ramparts.
You did great.

//edit// Pally power is a mod for assigning buffs to classes in the raid between pallies. grab it with their updater (WAU)
I have ADHD and OCD...I keep forgetting to wash my hands.
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Postby Sthallas » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:54 am

That was a guild run for them?? O_O wow! Do not join that guild.
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Postby Aalryn » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:55 pm

just say "look I have more health, and am doing more threat on more mobs than you are and i'm not even trying to hold threat. I'm main tank now, you can offtank"
~insert flashy signature here~

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Postby Minn » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:51 pm

That does sound like a rough day in Karazhan. It sounds like there were some preconceptions about tanking roles that made things harder than they needed to be. Stuff like "Warrior X= MT" and "No AE tanking". Figuring out how to challenge those preconceptions without turning people against you is your real problem.

One thing working in your favor is the fact that, apart from the occasional insecure tank, most people just want the bosses dead ASAP for a chance to check out the loot tables or pick up badges and move on. People may say stuff like "oh, pallies can't tank" or whatever, but given the choice between 6 wipes with the same flawed strategy/implementation or 2 wipes and a clean kill with a few changes, most opt for the latter.

What you need to do is find out who is calling the shots. Start sending them tells. Tells work better than openly questioning the leadership in raidchat because it gives the leaders the chance to present the ideas to the raid, instead of you. Identify the problems for them "he's taking too much damage" or "he's not generating nearly enough threat" or "we have untanked mobs/ CC is getting killed trying to reshackle". Then tell them about your solutions. Here's where you point out superior hp/armor/uncrushability. Let them know how much threat you can generate, or if they insist on CC, how you can make things easier by getting initial aggro. AS -> Exorcism -> Shackle gives a Priest a huge threat buffer. Just remember who your audience is, and present your ideas in a way that will appeal to them. One thing that works often is offering to do things their way for a couple times, if they'll give your way a shot later. One or two wipes later, you get a chance to do your stuff with everyone on board.
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Postby Big Mushy » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:49 am

Wow, thanks for all the replies. I've passed on the guild after that run, the ironic thing is the next day I was asked to MT ZA for most of the group that was in my kara run, I almost fell off my chair laughing and I passed.

Its good to know that I didn't do the wrong thing by trying to pickup lose mobs etc, and if I ever have a bad run again like that I now have suggestions on what to do
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Postby Bobness » Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:03 am

You did Extremly well to last for 5 Hours.

I went on a similar run with a guild Who refused to let me Multi Tank anything & would have CC'd the rats if they could. They just weren't ready to do anything that deviated from their preconcieved Norm.

Next week I went in with a group that refused all CC and made me Tank everything...

Just depends on your luck I guess.
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Postby Yeti » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:38 am

OP, you have the patience of a saint. In the early days (many months ago) of paladin tanking in Kara, your story was common. Warrior = MT. I'm sorry you were stuck with that group. I would not have lasted past Moroes before leaving the raid.

For me, if there is another tank of any class who can MT a fight better than me (due to stats, gear, mechanics or experience) then I am happy to OT or off-heal. Otherwise, the group should recognize the tank setup that maximizes chance of success.

Whoever was running that raid was an arse.
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Postby Eroslight » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:04 pm

Agreed with the above posters - That group leadership rode the short bus to Karazhan.

If they don't let you AOE tank things - they aren't somebody you want to raid with. My guild has 3 kara groups running and mine is the only one to have made it to ZA (bear/eagle down - in only 50% epics too for the raid), its cause Pallys turn kara into a cakewalk.

I bring a warrior OT who will taunt a mob off me whenever he feels like it cause he's bored (I usually sub him out for most of the raid). In fact - You only need an OT in 4 pulls (the Ushers, those big bastards before curator cause of the fishes draining your mana, and one other pull.. it escapes me.) But other than that I seriously AOE tank 90% of that crap out there - and the locks and mages and ele shaman have contests to see who can do higher DPS. It gets kind of unnerving when you see a Holy fire rain down on moroes from the holy priest when you have 2 or 3 adds on you plus moroes - he said it was cause he was bored.

PS. The only add you actually should have shakled is the MS warrior, the rest you can laugh at - If its the prot warrior just pop a condom on him and say he's yours cause you always heard you should use one- then just be sure your shield hits him while concentration on moroes (yes you MT moroes). Then burn down the spriest, hpriest, holypally, ret pally, prot warrior, then Moroes - then the MS that was chain shakled. It shouldn't be too big deal at all.

That is definately NOT the way to do curator - all DPS on the adds as they pop up, nothing on curator if an add is alive. During its evocation phase is when you want to go nutty (but only after that last add is dead.) My group has gotten to the point where we can get him below 35% during the first evocation, when we were progressing on him - he was at like 75% after the first evocation but the healers still had mana to last.

Nightbane is easycakes with a fear ward and a tremor totem sticking up your butt. You were right in using exorism so the healer doesn't get 1 shot - you can survive more than 2 hits against him - they can't. Next time tell them if they yell at you for tanking a mob, yell at the MT for not picking him up sooner.
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Postby Balls » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:12 pm

Your group was fail. If someone yelled at me for doing the right thing and it was in a guild/raid, I'd leave the guild and raid group. They would never get past Karazhan.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:15 pm

Balls wrote:Your group was fail. If someone yelled at me for doing the right thing and it was in a guild/raid, I'd leave the guild and raid group. They would never get past Karazhan.

I actually got yelled cause i asked a priest to shackle a mob :<

Men, AoEing trashs is a drug...
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Lumine » Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:43 am

Be happy, u did ur job. Next time be more confident and try to convince ur Raid Leader to let u be the main Tank.

I was OT when i did my first kara run, but mysteriously our MT Druid got disconnected, they wer about to call the run (we didn't even killed Attunmen), then i said that i wanted to be the main tank ,**imput lol pally tank trash talk here**, i just said "we call it if we wipe".(The only epic i had that time was Tankantronic Googles)

How was it:

Attunmen- No wipes
Moroes- No wipes
Maiden- No wipes
Curator- No wipes
Shade of Aran- 1 wipe (druid didn't know that shapeshift activated flame wreath)
Netherspite- 1 wipe (first run, didn't understand how to do it correctly)
Nightbane- 1 wipe ( a misdirect 4 seconds late)
Prince- 1 wipe (Parry->Trash = me X_X . Just bad luck)

Now i'm the MT of my kara group and my druid friend is the OT, i haven't heard any complains about pallys tankin from my guild until now.

Next time if something like that happens again be confident and just say "I want to be the main Tank" if they don't want u to do the job , just leave the group after the first wipe.

*Since Dorothy's Opera event doesn't need a well geared tank, i'm not giving the details (no wipes, 6 maned The Crone).
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Postby Big Mushy » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:12 pm

Well I ran Kara last night with a different group and I was MT, I was able to AoE tank nearly every pull, The ushers and bosses were a bit of a challenge but the group said they were impressed (was an alt run of our top raiding guild on the server) for someone with my gear level I was doing well, I did make a few mistakes (was late on holy shield with nightbane and was crushed) afterwards I was told I just need to focus more on TPS and my confidence (I like to have mana before a pull and went through about 30 super mana pots lol) So thanks again for all the replies and help

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