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Summary of Basic MoP Info?

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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:56 pm

Ironshield wrote:I'm a wrath baby so excuse my lack of historical context but I was wondering what some of you more experienced chaps think is going to happen with gemming in MoP. In Cata we started with us much Mastery as we could scrounge at first and as we geared up and could sustain the cap we switched to Stamina. With no cap to hit do you think we'll stay gemming dodge / parry till 6.0 or will we just go straight to Stamina? Obviously I'm not thinking of world 1st hunters who just do their own weird thing anyway but normal casual / progression tanks. Or since hit / exp has a cap, will people just go for that out of habit? Or is it a critical requirement with AM?


This is actually more on topic.

I loathe, despise, and abhor wild swings in my damage intake. Damage spikes give me gas, cramps, and an itchy rash. Unless an iron-clad alternative presents itself, I will stack Mastery. Not for the AM (which I am somewhat disdainful and mistrustful of) but for the block chance increase. Decreasing the number and frequency of unblocked hits should flatten out the damage intake curve. I know Blizzard wants us to take unblocked hits, but I don't. I plan on limiting them to the greatest semi-reasonable degree.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Gab » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:25 pm

Feanorion wrote:
I'm pretty non-mathy, but that doesn't sound right. When you taunt and hit your AM, it will still only stay up a few seconds, then be down for several seconds. The % of uptime when you're actually tanking the boss shouldn't change.


Luckily for you it's more common sense than it is mathy. If, in the example of a tank swap fight, you are allowed to pool 5 holy power while the other tank is taking his turn you will have a much better than 1/3 up time while actively tanking the boss.

I just don't see a real difference between pushing buttons to hold threat while survivability is mostly passive, to pushing buttons to survive while threat is mostly passive. In the end, we need to do both, Blizzard will arrange it to where we are capable of doing both. I just don't see the difference being anything more than a philosophical one.


You don't see a difference where pushing a button that's off the GCD at critical moments and actually having to manage Holy Power is more engaging than running through the same boring rotation?

Edit:
Feanorion wrote:This is actually more on topic.

I loathe, despise, and abhor wild swings in my damage intake. Damage spikes give me gas, cramps, and an itchy rash. Unless an iron-clad alternative presents itself, I will stack Mastery. Not for the AM (which I am somewhat disdainful and mistrustful of) but for the block chance increase. Decreasing the number and frequency of unblocked hits should flatten out the damage intake curve. I know Blizzard wants us to take unblocked hits, but I don't. I plan on limiting them to the greatest semi-reasonable degree.


Your missing the point of AM. The point of AM is to be less spikey by managing and timing your SotR buff appropriately. And every reply I have seen has been on topic...
Last edited by Gab on Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Darielle » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:35 pm

Actually, my logic works perfectly in this case. In your scenario, that other 20% was designed to be fatal (or nearly so) without popping a cd. In the case of AM, it is mostly only going to be mitigating ordinary melee swings not designed to need a cd to survive.


This isn't true at all. It's a basic aspect of fight design (and even more true in MoP) that they every bit of tank damage comes into play in a kill situation, even if it's just making the healer move. The 20% and stronger cooldowns don't just come into play for Impales and Breaths, every tank winds up having to use them on "ordinary melee swings".

Never mind that we're also looking at any magic damage done to us, and they're giving every tank powerful tools for survival and they're absolutely accounting for our use of them when they tune how much bosses melee for, so it's not like you're using them on parts where you're "not designed to need a cd".

I'm pretty non-mathy, but that doesn't sound right. When you taunt and hit your AM, it will still only stay up a few seconds, then be down for several seconds. The % of uptime when you're actually tanking the boss shouldn't change.


You're going to go into each taunt swap with 5 Holy Power, and you're amplifying the effect that things like Holy Avenger have because you're using them for a larger portion of the time you're spending tanking.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:58 pm

Gab wrote:
Feanorion wrote:
I'm pretty non-mathy, but that doesn't sound right. When you taunt and hit your AM, it will still only stay up a few seconds, then be down for several seconds. The % of uptime when you're actually tanking the boss shouldn't change.


1) Luckily for you it's more common sense than it is mathy. If, in the example of a tank swap fight, you are allowed to pool 5 holy power while the other tank is taking his turn you will have a much better than 1/3 up time while actively tanking the boss.

I just don't see a real difference between pushing buttons to hold threat while survivability is mostly passive, to pushing buttons to survive while threat is mostly passive. In the end, we need to do both, Blizzard will arrange it to where we are capable of doing both. I just don't see the difference being anything more than a philosophical one.


2) You don't see a difference where pushing a button that's off the GCD at critical moments and actually having to manage Holy Power is more engaging than running through the same boring rotation?

Edit:
Feanorion wrote:This is actually more on topic.

I loathe, despise, and abhor wild swings in my damage intake. Damage spikes give me gas, cramps, and an itchy rash. Unless an iron-clad alternative presents itself, I will stack Mastery. Not for the AM (which I am somewhat disdainful and mistrustful of) but for the block chance increase. Decreasing the number and frequency of unblocked hits should flatten out the damage intake curve. I know Blizzard wants us to take unblocked hits, but I don't. I plan on limiting them to the greatest semi-reasonable degree.


3) Your missing the point of AM. The point of AM is to be less spikey by managing and timing your SotR buff appropriately. And every reply I have seen has been on topic...


1) A fair point. Conceded.

2) If by "at critical moments" you mean--- with a few possible exceptions--- hitting AM every time you hit 5 HoPo? So no. Working one's rotation and hitting a cd on need does not seem so terribly different from working one's rotation until <POWERDING!> <hit SotR>.

3) It was actually my own previous post I was referring to as straying afield. I was getting more into griping about changes than discussing them and learning them.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Darielle » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:08 pm

If by "at critical moments" you mean--- with a few possible exceptions--- hitting AM every time you hit 5 HoPo? So no. Working one's rotation and hitting a cd on need does not seem so terribly different from working one's rotation until <POWERDING!> <hit SotR>.


Banking to get to 5 Holy Power is a conscious choice that would involve at some point not spending Holy Power. It would be advisable to do this gradually as a general rule instead of just not using ShoR for the first 8-10 seconds of the fight (aka, save that Holy Power when you're at full health and feel safe as opposed to just denying yourself from spending Holy Power in the first portion of the fight, especially on a fight you cannot preposition on - just like a healer won't just be beelining to get into position, they'd want to heal-move, stutterstep, etc.).

But with that said, even at 5 HP you don't have a "cd", and you don't have a need to hit it every time you hit 5 HP. If you just CS'd to 5 HP, your next gcd is Consecration and the boss is turned around casting something on someone else, a smart tank would be perfectly justified in not hitting ShoR until he's just about to hit his next Holy Power generating move. The entire point of going to 5 is that you can use Holy Power whenever, including every single time your healer has to move even 5 steps to the left, or every time you're breathed on, even if you don't have 5 stacks of Bastion at the time (because ShoR + a 80k heal is still worth it to hitting ShoR and standing there while boss breaths on you for 300k over 3 seconds).
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Gab » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:17 pm

Feanorion wrote:2) If by "at critical moments" you mean--- with a few possible exceptions--- hitting AM every time you hit 5 HoPo? So no. Working one's rotation and hitting a cd on need does not seem so terribly different from working one's rotation until <POWERDING!> <hit SotR>.


To be fair I think it will be much greater than a few possible exceptions. You're correct that you will hit SotR at 5 HP right before your next HP generator comes off of cooldown as to not waste HP but there will probably be many times where you want to use SotR at less than 5 HP. It really all depends on how encounters are tuned, but almost every boss... ever, has examples of where it would be advantageous to time SotRs around "specials" through out the fight.

And what Darielle said
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:21 pm

Darielle wrote:
If by "at critical moments" you mean--- with a few possible exceptions--- hitting AM every time you hit 5 HoPo? So no. Working one's rotation and hitting a cd on need does not seem so terribly different from working one's rotation until <POWERDING!> <hit SotR>.


1) Banking to get to 5 Holy Power is a conscious choice that would involve at some point not spending Holy Power. It would be advisable to do this gradually as a general rule instead of just not using ShoR for the first 8-10 seconds of the fight (aka, save that Holy Power when you're at full health and feel safe as opposed to just denying yourself from spending Holy Power in the first portion of the fight, especially on a fight you cannot preposition on - just like a healer won't just be beelining to get into position, they'd want to heal-move, stutterstep, etc.).

2) But with that said, even at 5 HP you don't have a "cd", and you don't have a need to hit it every time you hit 5 HP. If you just CS'd to 5 HP, your next gcd is Consecration and the boss is turned around casting something on someone else, a smart tank would be perfectly justified in not hitting ShoR until he's just about to hit his next Holy Power generating move. The entire point of going to 5 is that you can use Holy Power whenever, including every single time your healer has to move even 5 steps to the left, or every time you're breathed on, even if you don't have 5 stacks of Bastion at the time (because ShoR + a 80k heal is still worth it to hitting ShoR and standing there while boss breaths on you for 300k over 3 seconds).


1) Or hitting a real tanking cd to start the fight, get to and maintain 5 HoPo unless needed otherwise. <yawn>

2) So it is considered "engaging" to not hit AM while the boss is turned away casting/moving/etc? Be still my racing heart. I currently use that time to cast Exorcism, or a sadly weak Holy Radiance or Holy Light. Or use a "Hand of---" spell if needed and appropriate. I'm still making a decision to do something. It just seems to me that the names of the abilities are changing, but we are just swapping out direct defense/mostly auto-threat for direct threat/mostly auto defenses. Its just Yin instead of Yang in my eyes.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:24 pm

Gab wrote:
Feanorion wrote:2) If by "at critical moments" you mean--- with a few possible exceptions--- hitting AM every time you hit 5 HoPo? So no. Working one's rotation and hitting a cd on need does not seem so terribly different from working one's rotation until <POWERDING!> <hit SotR>.


To be fair I think it will be much greater than a few possible exceptions. You're correct that you will hit SotR at 5 HP right before your next HP generator comes off of cooldown as to not waste HP but there will probably be many times where you want to use SotR at less than 5 HP. It really all depends on how encounters are tuned, but almost every boss... ever, has examples of where it would be advantageous to time SotRs around "specials" through out the fight.


Most "specials" are magic. AM won't affect most "specials" unless it was changed to affect all damage, not just physical. Or unless it has always reduced all damage and I was misinformed.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby daishan » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:35 pm

Feanorion wrote:Most "specials" are magic. AM won't affect most "specials" unless it was changed to affect all damage, not just physical. Or unless it has always reduced all damage and I was misinformed.


I think "most specials are magic" is exaggerating a little, and even the ones that are normally have melee attacks either side of them, so cleaver use of SotR will mean you take the magic hit with more hp and then take less dmg from the next melee.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Gab » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:36 pm

Feanorion wrote:Most "specials" are magic. AM won't affect most "specials" unless it was changed to affect all damage, not just physical. Or unless it has always reduced all damage and I was misinformed.


Yeah but the melee swings before and/or after the large magic damage are often contributing factors to getting gibbed. If you can time it so both of these dangerous swings are covered by SotR buffs you drastically increase your odds of survival.

Edit: Apparently I'm just too slow today.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:51 pm

Gab wrote:
Feanorion wrote:Most "specials" are magic. AM won't affect most "specials" unless it was changed to affect all damage, not just physical. Or unless it has always reduced all damage and I was misinformed.


Yeah but the melee swings before and/or after the large magic damage are often contributing factors to getting gibbed. If you can time it so both of these dangerous swings are covered by SotR buffs you drastically increase your odds of survival.

Edit: Apparently I'm just too slow today.


This is true. However, mitigating the two melee swings before the Big Boss Blast (meaning you aren't as low to begin with) will often--- incoming heals varying, of course--- be effectively the same as mitigating the one before and the one after, or the two after. In many cases, the timing will not, and in content designed for casual players (non-heroic raids) can not be tuned so tightly that AM has to be so precisely utilized.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Darielle » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:52 pm

1) Or hitting a real tanking cd to start the fight, get to and maintain 5 HoPo unless needed otherwise. <yawn>


Well, if you want to sink a cooldown that you can't get back for a significant stretch of time, feel free to. It'd be a bad option to take, but that's never stopped anyone. Never mind that you're going to be doing this every time you actual spend all your Holy Power (because once you've spent it all, you're back to 0, and if you insist on being at 5 HP all the time, that means no using HP for another 8-10 seconds).

So it is considered "engaging" to not hit AM while the boss is turned away casting/moving/etc? Be still my racing heart. I currently use that time to cast Exorcism, or a sadly weak Holy Radiance or Holy Light. Or use a "Hand of---" spell if needed and appropriate. I'm still making a decision to do something. It just seems to me that the names of the abilities are changing, but we are just swapping out direct defense/mostly auto-threat for direct threat/mostly auto defenses. Its just Yin instead of Yang in my eyes.


It's considered engaging to be in control of when you hit AM. That means, when you choose to bank it, not hitting it when you're not being swing at, delaying it a few seconds to line up for burst (like Arcing Slash), timing it between ticks of something strong and periodic (like Permafrost or Shadowflame Breath), etc. Not hitting AM while the boss is turned away is merely one of the distinctions between "I facescroll buttons and hit them when they light up" and "I'm actually paying attention to buttons".

You can still use Hand spells or Flash of Light or whatever you want to do when the boss is turned, ShoR is off the gcd.

Most "specials" are magic. AM won't affect most "specials" unless it was changed to affect all damage, not just physical. Or unless it has always reduced all damage and I was misinformed.


ShoR is only physical damage. WoG heals, and so becomes stronger on magical damage. In addition, most magical specials still come with melee swings, and reducing the damage right before or right after the magical damage can be critical to survival (e.g., the difference between going into a breath with 80% health instead of 100%, or the difference between healers falling behind after the breath from the melee hits that follow or not).

This is true. However, mitigating the two melee swings before the Big Boss Blast (meaning you aren't as low to begin with) will often--- incoming heals varying, of course--- be effectively the same as mitigating the one before and the one after, or the two after. In many cases, the timing will not, and in content designed for casual players (non-heroic raids) can not be tuned so tightly that AM has to be so precisely utilized.


That's actually not true, because it's casual players who perform at less than optimal, and who will fall behind.

If what you're saying is "content nerfed for bad players", you'd have a point. Normal mode content, even when tuned leniently, will still prove a challenge to "casual" healers, because they're the ones who will be running themselves unnecessarily OOM, or not lining up heals to land immediately after a breath hits, or falling behind because they need to click on your portrait and then go click their heal button and so on.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Gab » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:59 pm

Feanorion wrote: This is true. However, mitigating the two melee swings before the Big Boss Blast (meaning you aren't as low to begin with) will often--- incoming heals varying, of course--- be effectively the same as mitigating the one before and the one after, or the two after. In many cases, the timing will not, and in content designed for casual players (non-heroic raids) can not be tuned so tightly that AM has to be so precisely utilized.


Totally agree, I highly doubt Blizzard will design tank damage in normal mode encounters assuming 100% proper use of AM. That doesn't mean that you wont be able to save your "cusual players" group many wipes and speed up progression because YOU have decided to work harder/smarter. You can pick up some of the slack of that awful pug healer, or good friend healer that has horrible lag, or allowing healers more healing time on the DPS who just can't be troubled too move out of X in time etc... by increasing your effectiveness as a tank.

Edit: Basically you can probably get by with macroing SotR to CS if that's how you want to play and are ok with the fact it could cause the occasional tank or other raid member death (because healers have to focus on you more). But Blizzard has given us the option to be better tanks through maximizing our new AM at every level of raiding; it's your choice if you want to use it or not.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Koatanga » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:06 pm

Feanorion wrote:So it is considered "engaging" to not hit AM while the boss is turned away casting/moving/etc? Be still my racing heart.

Are you mistaking us for designers? I thought you wanted analysis.

Complaints with regard to design decisions should probably be addressed to the game designers.

I am personally not a fan of playing cooldown-tetris or proc-tanking, which is why I play a Paladin and not a DK. I find the stable rotation of the Paladin allows me plenty of brain time to devote to leading my raid. So from that regard I am not at all looking forward to Pandaclysm.

But I am not going to demand that people here justify that design decision, because they have nothing to do with it.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:11 pm

Darielle wrote:
1) Or hitting a real tanking cd to start the fight, get to and maintain 5 HoPo unless needed otherwise. <yawn>


1) Well, if you want to sink a cooldown that you can't get back for a significant stretch of time, feel free to.

So it is considered "engaging" to not hit AM while the boss is turned away casting/moving/etc? Be still my racing heart. I currently use that time to cast Exorcism, or a sadly weak Holy Radiance or Holy Light. Or use a "Hand of---" spell if needed and appropriate. I'm still making a decision to do something. It just seems to me that the names of the abilities are changing, but we are just swapping out direct defense/mostly auto-threat for direct threat/mostly auto defenses. Its just Yin instead of Yang in my eyes.


2) It's considered engaging to be in control of when you hit AM. That means, when you choose to bank it, not hitting it when you're not being swing at, delaying it a few seconds to line up for burst (like Arcing Slash), timing it between ticks of something strong and periodic (like Permafrost or Shadowflame Breath), etc. Not hitting AM while the boss is turned away is merely one of the distinctions between "I facescroll buttons and hit them when they light up" and "I'm actually paying attention to buttons".

You can still use Hand spells or Flash of Light or whatever you want to do when the boss is turned, ShoR is off the gcd.

This is true. However, mitigating the two melee swings before the Big Boss Blast (meaning you aren't as low to begin with) will often--- incoming heals varying, of course--- be effectively the same as mitigating the one before and the one after, or the two after. In many cases, the timing will not, and in content designed for casual players (non-heroic raids) can not be tuned so tightly that AM has to be so precisely utilized.


3) That's actually not true, because it's casual players who perform at less than optimal, and who will fall behind.

If what you're saying is "content nerfed for bad players", you'd have a point. Normal mode content, even when tuned leniently, will still prove a challenge to "casual" healers, because they're the ones who will be running themselves unnecessarily OOM, or not lining up heals to land immediately after a breath hits, and so on.


1) Glyphed Divine Protection is a 1-minute cd. Using it initially to bank 5 HoPo is likely not going to be any issue at all. If a specific fight mechanic requires a CD before its back up, I'll have my 5 HoPo and SotR ready.

2) Its still just minor, simple decision-making. Its still just hitting buttons as the need arises. Just different buttons for different needs.

3) None of that has a bloody thing to do with precise timing of SotR in normal content. In the absence of healing, mitigating 2 attacks prior to, one attack prior to and one after, won't make a whole lot of difference in most cases.
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