Summary of Basic MoP Info?

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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:27 am

Other than the expertise, Prime glyphs were just flat increases to damage/healing. The spells are balanced without them, so there'll not really be a loss.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Darielle » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:31 am

Doesn't that equate to a lot of lost functionality? For instance, it looks like we lost the 10 Expertise in a set-up where we actually need it.


We lost 10 Expertise, but no other Prime Glyph was particularly a big deal - they're just damage increases. Major glyphs are going to involve placing Consecrates, increased damage for Judgment-weaving on targets, using WoG to damage enemies, that sort of stuff now.

If this holds true, and we reforge out of as much Mastery as possible in favor of more avoidance, won't that pretty much mean that the Active Mitigation model is a failure?


No, it just means that Avoidance gives the most total DR over time. That's not a metric we fixate about in general anyway, which is why people are probably going to be happy getting Hit/Exp and also getting Mastery. If a person wants to only worry about overall dr over time, then sure stacking Dodge/Parry and reforging out of Mastery would be a goal to shoot for, but for smart tanks using Hit/Exp and Mastery to get superior on-demand mitigation has a lot of power. That's not even bringing EH/Stam into the equation.

With the Damage Reduction component greatly diminished by a lack of Mastery, and our survivability increased more by avoidance than by active mitigation, won't that create a situation where AM is something we use just because its there? It seems to me that if use of AM is not crucial to our survival, why bother with the changes to the classes that were supposed to have AM as the centerpiece?


With absolutely 0 Mastery from gear, ShoR gives 43% physical damage reduction. Realistically, it's going to hover around the 50% mark. Even without stacking Mastery, using it properly will be a big deal. Mastery just adds flavour for us as Paladins in enhancing it instead of giving some other effect like more block or "Hey, have some armour".

Mastery doesn't need to be our god stat for AM to be considered good - it's just another stat.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:46 am

Levantine wrote:
Feanorion wrote:Doesn't that equate to a lot of lost functionality? For instance, it looks like we lost the 10 Expertise in a set-up where we actually need it.


Paladins are not special snowflakes. Glyphs are not meant to be flat increases to damage, and that particular glyph was wildly overpowered in the old glyph system to the best of my knowledge. All classes lost their "I'm an obvious damage increase" glyphs.


Alabaster Shield?
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:51 am

Darielle wrote:With absolutely 0 Mastery from gear, ShoR gives 43% physical damage reduction. Realistically, it's going to hover around the 50% mark. Even without stacking Mastery, using it properly will be a big deal. Mastery just adds flavour for us as Paladins in enhancing it instead of giving some other effect like more block or "Hey, have some armour".

Mastery doesn't need to be our god stat for AM to be considered good - it's just another stat.


I didn't say we wouldn't use it. I said we would use it because its there, and we might as well. It just doesn't seem like it was worth completely re-inventing the game for if its just another stat.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Nooska » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:45 am

Feanorion wrote:
Darielle wrote:With absolutely 0 Mastery from gear, ShoR gives 43% physical damage reduction. Realistically, it's going to hover around the 50% mark. Even without stacking Mastery, using it properly will be a big deal. Mastery just adds flavour for us as Paladins in enhancing it instead of giving some other effect like more block or "Hey, have some armour".

Mastery doesn't need to be our god stat for AM to be considered good - it's just another stat.


I didn't say we wouldn't use it. I said we would use it because its there, and we might as well. It just doesn't seem like it was worth completely re-inventing the game for if its just another stat.


As Darielle said, Total Damage Reduction (over time) is not something we actually look at in particular - same reason that in T13 changing mastery for stamina was superior to reforging for more avoidance - in the real world situations TDR is not very important, because each point is insignificant on its own. With the AM model on the other hand, mastery becomes a more interesting stat than it was, and (in theory) is uncappable. (though last I saw referenced, mastery still increased our block chance)
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby daishan » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:05 am

Mastery does increase our block chance but now that we're on a 2 roll system to "block cap" we'd need 100% block or maybe a few % each way I'm unsure of just how the bosses miss chance interacts with the 2nd roll, anyway safe to say we can't hit block cap with the gear that will be available in t14 or the rest of mists for that matter.
For myself I'm liking the look of the AM tanking model, just as long as Blizz can get all the tanks close to balanced on survivability and dps.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby theckhd » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:13 am

Feanorion wrote:
Levantine wrote:
Feanorion wrote:Doesn't that equate to a lot of lost functionality? For instance, it looks like we lost the 10 Expertise in a set-up where we actually need it.


Paladins are not special snowflakes. Glyphs are not meant to be flat increases to damage, and that particular glyph was wildly overpowered in the old glyph system to the best of my knowledge. All classes lost their "I'm an obvious damage increase" glyphs.


Alabaster Shield?

is a) a very weak DPS increase, and b) a DPS increase glyph for a tank spec. It's OK to have a boring, small DPS increase for a tank spec, because we don't care as much about DPS. It wouldn't be OK to have a straight-up survivability glyph, which is why we don't have one. Similarly for DPS glyphs for DPS specs, etc.

Feanorion wrote:I didn't say we wouldn't use it. I said we would use it because its there, and we might as well. It just doesn't seem like it was worth completely re-inventing the game for if its just another stat.

I don't follow your logic here. We'll use SotR because we need to, not just because it's there. They didn't "re-invent the game" (by which I'm assuming you mean moving to the Active Mitigation model) just so they could tie mastery into it. They implemented Active Mitigation to make tanking more interesting and rewarding (and thank $deity for that, given the changes we've seen in Cataclysm).
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Weebey » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:58 am

theckhd wrote:I don't follow your logic here


I think the OP is confusing a function with its derivative.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:35 pm

theckhd wrote:I don't follow your logic here. We'll use SotR because we need to, not just because it's there. They didn't "re-invent the game" (by which I'm assuming you mean moving to the Active Mitigation model) just so they could tie mastery into it. They implemented Active Mitigation to make tanking more interesting and rewarding (and thank $deity for that, given the changes we've seen in Cataclysm).


Last I heard, its uptime was around 1/3 of the time. If so, if that hasn't changed, we won't have it 2/3 of the time. Furthermore, on anything short of heroic raid content, Blizzard tunes things quite loosely. Based on those two factors, I think it is highly likely that on 5-man heroics and normal raids, we won't absolutely need it.

That being said, you would have to be a moron (or new to the mechanics and unaware) to not use AM.

But on non-heroic raid content, I don't see its use being strictly and absolutely imperative. We will be expected to survive 2/3 of every encounter--- again, providing that hasn't changed--- without AM anyway.

Will AM make tanking more interesting? Not having played it yet, I can't say. But it is still just pushing buttons; we've gone from pushing buttons to hold threat and not die, to pushing buttons to not die and then hold threat. I don't see the big difference aside from a philosophical one.

But I am skeptical of major changes with no model to build around when you already have a product that is already massively popular. AM, new non-tree talent trees, completely scrapping what has been a successful combat system for the better part of a decade--- I am just very leery of major changes that make a minor difference.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Koatanga » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:03 pm

Assuming you were going against a phaseless boss that did nothing but stand there and hit the tank, AM would cover 1/3 of the time. However, encounters are simply not designed that way except for ol Patchy in Naxx.

There are times when we have adds, and times when the boss is busy doing something else, or spewing un-blockable magic, or running to mix a cauldron. There are fights where the boss must be kited, or puts a debuff on you so you have to swap tanks periodically. There are fights when you get a debuff that means you take a lot more damage for a certain amount of time.

I don't think we should worry about the effectiveness of the AM model against Patchwork, and instead worry about it in regular raiding conditions.

If there's a tank-swap fight, then instead of covering 1/3 of the fight with your AM up, you cover 2/3 of the time the boss is facing you.

If the boss goes into a channeling phase and you put your AM up, then you probably failed to use it optimally.

In real life we'll see a lot more than 1/3 uptime against real incoming damage.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby theckhd » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:18 pm

Feanorion wrote:But on non-heroic raid content, I don't see its use being strictly and absolutely imperative. We will be expected to survive 2/3 of every encounter--- again, providing that hasn't changed--- without AM anyway.

....

But I am skeptical of major changes with no model to build around when you already have a product that is already massively popular. AM, new non-tree talent trees, completely scrapping what has been a successful combat system for the better part of a decade--- I am just very leery of major changes that make a minor difference.


That logic doesn't work. Consider: we're expected to survive 80% of every encounter without damage reduction cooldowns, so obviously those won't be needed either, right?

I can assure you that players have used damage reduction cooldowns to survive dicey situations in normal modes before. The normal/heroic distinction isn't as clear either, because a weaker raid team may find normal mode just as challenging as a strong raid team finds heroic mode.

Also note that upwards of 50% damage reduction is a pretty big amount, and will make a noticeable difference in how much healing you take. This isn't a small amount of damage reduction we're talking about. That's definitely enough to start making your healer sweat in difficult content.

As to the last point, there is an established model for Active Mitigation - Death Knight tanking.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Darielle » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:51 pm

I didn't say we wouldn't use it. I said we would use it because its there, and we might as well. It just doesn't seem like it was worth completely re-inventing the game for if its just another stat.


Active Mitigation isn't being changed for Mastery; it's being changed to be a rotational thing that we do to contribute to our survival, and it succeeds in doing that by having a very strong noticeable effect that we can do often, and do interesting things with (especially through talents like Holy Avenger)

In our case alone, when they were wondering what Mastery should do, they chose to have it affect the strength of our buttons. Mastery being "not-god" doesn't mean AM is bad, it just means the numbers they gave to Mastery aren't quite as strong for total damage reduction (a metric we don't fixate on) as Dodge/Parry. Which makes sense - Mastery amplifies our on-demand mitigation, so people who want to do that can do that, and people who want total damage reduction can go for Dodge/Parry. If Mastery was both superior controllable mitigation and more overall total dr, Dodge/Parry wouldn't really have a gearing focus.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Ironshield » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:12 pm

I'm a wrath baby so excuse my lack of historical context but I was wondering what some of you more experienced chaps think is going to happen with gemming in MoP. In Cata we started with us much Mastery as we could scrounge at first and as we geared up and could sustain the cap we switched to Stamina. With no cap to hit do you think we'll stay gemming dodge / parry till 6.0 or will we just go straight to Stamina? Obviously I'm not thinking of world 1st hunters who just do their own weird thing anyway but normal casual / progression tanks. Or since hit / exp has a cap, will people just go for that out of habit? Or is it a critical requirement with AM?
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Darielle » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:20 pm

Ironshield wrote:I'm a wrath baby so excuse my lack of historical context but I was wondering what some of you more experienced chaps think is going to happen with gemming in MoP. In Cata we started with us much Mastery as we could scrounge at first and as we geared up and could sustain the cap we switched to Stamina. With no cap to hit do you think we'll stay gemming dodge / parry till 6.0 or will we just go straight to Stamina? Obviously I'm not thinking of world 1st hunters who just do their own weird thing anyway but normal casual / progression tanks. Or since hit / exp has a cap, will people just go for that out of habit? Or is it a critical requirement with AM?


I'd guesstimate fully half of all tanks will go for Hit/Exp then Mastery/Stamina. The others will probably split up between Parry/Dodge and Mastery/Stamina.

In general, STamina will only be something most people will seek if it looks necessary. That depends a lot more on how 25-H tunes out, tbh.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:50 pm

If there's a tank-swap fight, then instead of covering 1/3 of the fight with your AM up, you cover 2/3 of the time the boss is facing you.


I'm pretty non-mathy, but that doesn't sound right. When you taunt and hit your AM, it will still only stay up a few seconds, then be down for several seconds. The % of uptime when you're actually tanking the boss shouldn't change.

That logic doesn't work. Consider: we're expected to survive 80% of every encounter without damage reduction cooldowns, so obviously those won't be needed either, right?


Actually, my logic works perfectly in this case. In your scenario, that other 20% was designed to be fatal (or nearly so) without popping a cd. In the case of AM, it is mostly only going to be mitigating ordinary melee swings not designed to need a cd to survive.

Active Mitigation isn't being changed for Mastery; it's being changed to be a rotational thing that we do to contribute to our survival, and it succeeds in doing that by having a very strong noticeable effect that we can do often---


I just don't see a real difference between pushing buttons to hold threat while survivability is mostly passive, to pushing buttons to survive while threat is mostly passive. In the end, we need to do both, Blizzard will arrange it to where we are capable of doing both. I just don't see the difference being anything more than a philosophical one.
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