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Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Mists of Pandaria Beta discussion

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Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Feanorion » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:05 pm

I asked some simple questions in a thread now locked.

1) What will be the primary "Generic Tank Build" for the new talent--- trees? Whatever they're called. I know that there is some talk about some fights requiring talent changes pre-fight, but I am talking the general purpose tanking build.

2) New Glyphs? Aren't we losing Prime glyphs?

3) What will be the single target rotation? AoE rotation?

4) What gearing paradigm will we use? Or do we know? Do we stack Mastery again for our chance-at-a-chance to block? Do we go back to Stamina?

5) How often does it look like we will need to sit on HoPo for a strategic SotR? Will it be something we just macro to everything to maximize uptime instead?

6) Will we have to WoG on 5 BoG as soon as our health dips below a certain % to avoid mana-sponging? Or will we sit on 5 BoG for long stretches?


For the record, no one should be expected to read through 62 pages of one thread, 187 pages of another thread, or some thread full of mysterious and arcane math that is utterly incomprehensible to most non-NASA employees.

These are just some of the questions that paladin tanks in MoP will need answered. Rather than us slog through dozens or hundreds of mostly out-dated or non-responsive information, this thread can be the place that people who are not mathers can come for information meant for people playing a video game in their spare time.

Like me.

And if the info is not complete or finalized yet? "I don't know yet" is a perfectly good answer.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:06 pm

I renamed the title to something useful.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Newsom » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:15 pm

Did you ever stop to reflect on why two of your threads were locked?
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Feanorion » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:22 pm

Newsom wrote:Did you ever stop to reflect on why two of your threads were locked?


No.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby halabar » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:43 pm

Let me put it this way...

The straight-up direct answers you want are not likely to be answered the way you want them until someone updates the basics threads. But those won't be touched until probably after launch.

Also remember that this is a community, not just a get some answers and run place. I've seen some of your questions answered in threads, and I don't even play a prot pally anymore soo...
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Feanorion » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:06 pm

halabar wrote:Let me put it this way...

The straight-up direct answers you want are not likely to be answered the way you want them until someone updates the basics threads. But those won't be touched until probably after launch.

Also remember that this is a community, not just a get some answers and run place. I've seen some of your questions answered in threads, and I don't even play a prot pally anymore soo...


After launch? O.o

As far as finding the answers, I have neither the time nor the desire to slog through threads consisting of dozens or hundreds of pages. It is unreasonable to expect anyone to do so.

As far as "community", so far it has been a pretty unfriendly one. Why was I annoyed at 10 views in the locked thread and not one reply? Simple. In the Tanking Forum, when someone asks a question, it is answered.

Even if the thread is right below a sticky answering that question.
Even if it is a question that has been asked every week for 2 years.
When a question is asked--- when help and self-improvement is sought, at the Tanking Forums we (myself included) respond with helpful, respectful, friendly advice and information.

When I see a question that hasn't been answered, I feel duty-bound to try my best to answer it. So I feel completely justified expecting the same respect from others.

Lastly, my undergraduate degree was English Lit. My post grad is History. Math is a foreign--- an alien--- concept to me. Much of the info I have seen is completely incomprehensible to me. I don't need to know the how and the why, nor would I understand the mathiness of the answers. I just need the final results. Ultimately, this is a computer game. If trigculus and algebrometry are required to play, then that is a design failure.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Darielle » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:17 pm

After launch? O.o


That would be the time the changes aren't "Anything can happen", and when people are looking for the information, so around the first week of September when 5.0 is going to go live would be the logical time to actually make the sticky.

As far as finding the answers, I have neither the time nor the desire to slog through threads consisting of dozens or hundreds of pages. It is unreasonable to expect anyone to do so.


Use the search function.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby halabar » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:54 pm

Feanorion wrote:As far as finding the answers, I have neither the time nor the desire to slog through threads consisting of dozens or hundreds of pages. It is unreasonable to expect anyone to do so.


And you expect those here to spoon feed you?..

just...

lol

One final tip, PARTICIPATE in conversations. We are in beta. Things are changing in each build. Other things are bugged. Do a little research, and postulate something, and then someone might agree, or set you straight.

But don't ask someone to write up a treatise on MoP tanking for you.
Last edited by halabar on Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby theckhd » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:56 pm

Feanorion wrote:Math is a foreign--- an alien--- concept to me.

Apparently so is patience. I'd have gladly given you a few answers had I seen the thread in the 2-hour window before it was locked.

However, there's really no point updating a bunch of stickies to stay current with a beta that's changing weekly. The time I'd waste doing that is time not spend working on getting the actual answers you're looking for. Once we're closer to release (i.e. 5.0 ready to hit live servers), I'll update most of my stickies.

Feanorion wrote:1) What will be the primary "Generic Tank Build" for the new talent--- trees? Whatever they're called. I know that there is some talk about some fights requiring talent changes pre-fight, but I am talking the general purpose tanking build.

2) New Glyphs? Aren't we losing Prime glyphs?

3) What will be the single target rotation? AoE rotation?

4) What gearing paradigm will we use? Or do we know? Do we stack Mastery again for our chance-at-a-chance to block? Do we go back to Stamina?

5) How often does it look like we will need to sit on HoPo for a strategic SotR? Will it be something we just macro to everything to maximize uptime instead?

6) Will we have to WoG on 5 BoG as soon as our health dips below a certain % to avoid mana-sponging? Or will we sit on 5 BoG for long stretches?

1) Whatever you want. Seriously, the talents are pretty flexible. What's "optimal" really depends more on the specific encounter. Pick whatever seems most fun to you, very few are "bad" talents. The only ones that matter very much for tanking are T3 (Selfless Healer isn't as useful as EF/SS, it's probably the only one I'd call "bad" for prot), T5 (SW wins on DPS, HA gives you another cooldown, DP is probably more average mitigation overall), and T6 (ES is the highest DPS choice by a good margin, but HPr and LH both have utility - healing and aoe).

2) We lost primes. Majors change the way abilities work, Minors are cosmetic. Again, pick whatever sounds fun, nothing's mandatory. Certain ones give more utility (stuns on Holy Wrath, for example), others just give boring DPS increases (Alabaster Shield).

3) ^WB>(^SS)>SotR>CS>J>AS>Cons>HW for single-target, aoe is unknown (or unverified) but probably (^SS)>SotR>HotR>J>Cons>AS>HW. To decipher that notation, '^' means "keep this buff active," WB is the Weakened Blows debuff (the new Vindication, caused by HotR), (^SS) means "keep up Sacred Shield if you've talented it," and the rest should be familiar enough. Those are combination survival/DPS rotations, but to go all-out DPS you just drop WB/SS. Remember that SotR is off-GCD now, which takes some getting used to.

4) Nobody's sure. For raw damage reduction, it's dodge/parry>armor>mastery>hit/exp>haste. My guess is that instead, people will focus on mastery/hit/expertise and just take the dodge/parry that comes on gear. Reasoning is that hit/exp smooth the flow of Holy Power and give you more control over your SotR casts, letting smart tanks optimize mitigation on-demand (think 4.2's Holy Shield, in a sense). I wouldn't be surprised if hit/exp cap was more common in 5.0. Also, I'm predicting that Stam is king again in MoP, in cases where we have the choice.

5) Macroing will be the lazy man's solution (again, see 4.2+ Holy Shield). Since you can bank 5 Holy Power now, you won't need to worry about sitting on HP. You can just dump the HP into SotR when you have 5, and in most cases you'll generate another one by the time the 3-second buff expires. Good tanks will be dumping at 5 so they're ready to recast (or WoG) if they take a damage spike.

6) Again, there's no consensus on this yet (nor even much theorycrafting), but my impression is that we'll still be best-served by using WoG as an emergency button. It's not likely that we'll be mana sponges by not wogging - raid bosses should hit hard enough that SotR's mitigation benefit prevents almost as much damage as WoG heals with a 5-stack of BoG. So we'll probably sit on 5 stacks for long stretches between WoGs, unless we're trying to optimize self-healing/self-sustainability for some reason (soloing, perhaps). While raid tanking, it may turn out that we decide whether to SotR or WoG based on BoG during a spike event (i.e. low BoG stacks = SotR since it will prevent more damage than WoG heals; high BoG stacks = WoG for the opposite reason).
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby econ21 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:50 am

On the talents/glyphs, mmo-champion has a very nice thread discussing them:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/116 ... nts-Glyphs
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby culhag » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:03 am

We really have too many spells.
7 spells for the base rotation + WoG + CDs + Talents
I don't know where to put all that. To the point that I'm passing talents because I don't know where I could put them.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby bldavis » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:14 am

culhag wrote:We really have too many spells.
7 spells for the base rotation + WoG + CDs + Talents
I don't know where to put all that. To the point that I'm passing talents because I don't know where I could put them.

and all of that makes me love my razor naga combined with bartender more and more

makes binding 24 abilities easy!
(1 - 12, plus shirt+1 - shift+12)
Last edited by bldavis on Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:06 am

Let's make a clean break of the previous threads and move on to the topic at hand.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Feanorion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:09 am

2) We lost primes.

Doesn't that equate to a lot of lost functionality? For instance, it looks like we lost the 10 Expertise in a set-up where we actually need it.

4) Nobody's sure. For raw damage reduction, it's dodge/parry>armor>mastery>hit/exp>haste.

If this holds true, and we reforge out of as much Mastery as possible in favor of more avoidance, won't that pretty much mean that the Active Mitigation model is a failure? With the Damage Reduction component greatly diminished by a lack of Mastery, and our survivability increased more by avoidance than by active mitigation, won't that create a situation where AM is something we use just because its there? It seems to me that if use of AM is not crucial to our survival, why bother with the changes to the classes that were supposed to have AM as the centerpiece?

5) Macroing will be the lazy man's solution---

Well, not a solution at all. Doing so would preclude the possibility of banking the other 2 HoPo, since we can have 5.
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Re: Summary of Basic MoP Info?

Postby Levantine » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:25 am

Feanorion wrote:Doesn't that equate to a lot of lost functionality? For instance, it looks like we lost the 10 Expertise in a set-up where we actually need it.


Paladins are not special snowflakes. Glyphs are not meant to be flat increases to damage, and that particular glyph was wildly overpowered in the old glyph system to the best of my knowledge. All classes lost their "I'm an obvious damage increase" glyphs.
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