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Beta Retribution

Mists of Pandaria Beta discussion

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Re: Beta Retribution

Postby Nordix » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:49 am

We're getting a cosmetic,long cast time,very low damage ranged ability out of druid symbiosys.
This is the new laughing stock among my guildies, also shows a lot about what the devs intend for the spec imho.
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Re: Beta Retribution

Postby Darielle » Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:49 pm

Nordix wrote:We're getting a cosmetic,long cast time,very low damage ranged ability out of druid symbiosys.
This is the new laughing stock among my guildies, also shows a lot about what the devs intend for the spec imho.


Would you rather get something gamebreaking that gets balanced around, or something that should be baseline (like Redirect/SoulSwap for Ferals) get pigeonholed into Symbiosis so that you feel incomplete without it?
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Re: Beta Retribution

Postby Dion » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:14 pm

Darielle wrote:
Nordix wrote:We're getting a cosmetic,long cast time,very low damage ranged ability out of druid symbiosys.
This is the new laughing stock among my guildies, also shows a lot about what the devs intend for the spec imho.


Would you rather get something gamebreaking that gets balanced around, or something that should be baseline (like Redirect/SoulSwap for Ferals) get pigeonholed into Symbiosis so that you feel incomplete without it?


I would be happy with ability that is useful. :)
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Re: Beta Retribution

Postby Darielle » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:13 am

I would be happy with ability that is useful.


The theme of it is "situational". MOments when something is at range for a prolonged length of time are rare, but they're not completely unheard of.

I mean, something like Stamp Roar which Warriors get would be more useful sure. But then Ret mobility would get balanced around it, and it would actually still only be situationally useful in PvE.
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Re: Beta Retribution

Postby Nordix » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:49 am

The abilities granted by symbiosys are highly PVP related. I cannot find a single pvp situation where a long cast time no damage easy to interrupt thing would be useful.I bet you money that they even made it HOLY tree for ret only,so if you get interrupted you get punished for using it.
And please stop bringing up the "I rather get s**t on, because I don't need further nerfing then,because I'M already unviable,leave my nonmainstream spec alone" argument.
Nothing in this game should be artifically made unviable like rets and lots of other specs.Blizzard tends to break classes and specs when they cant balance it save for the few "cool highskill" classes such as warlocks mages discpriests and such.
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Re: Beta Retribution

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:02 am

You're wrong, it's nature school. It's a long range nuke (longer range than any of the other Paladin attacks) you can use even when you've been locked out of Holy. It's a spell you can use when none of your other attacks are available, due to range, cooldown, or lockout.

They gave Ret something they were lacking, but that wouldn't be mandatory, simple as that.
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Re: Beta Retribution

Postby Nordix » Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:52 am

Judgment
Exorcism
Hammer of Wrath (during wings)
Execution sentence (at 90)
All ranged attacks,we were really lacking indeed.

Feral charge or a defensive ability would've been nicer.They'll either move into line of sight from your melee range to the other side of zone due to the long cast time and laugh at you,or just take it because it does no damage.
There is no logical explanation why we've gotten a cosmetic ability when everyone else (as in 30something other specs) have gotten actually useful stuff.
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Re: Beta Retribution

Postby Darielle » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:25 am

Aside from Judgment, that list is literally two abilities and then everything's on cd. Wrath would be something nonmandatory that could be used in between if you're really stuck for longer than a couple of gcd's.

Don't get me wrong; some of the abilities they've given people are just silly. Cyclone on Priests is just stupid - it's waiting to get nerfed. But what, you think Warlocks with a 10 sec cooldown Rejuv feel like they have something useful? Warriors with a 10 min cooldown 8 sec duration sprint? That they'd want to give Rets yet another defensive cooldown on top of the ones that we already have when Ret's biggest historical issue has been the number of defensive cooldowns we had? Come on now.

Also, Feral Charge (now Wild Charge) is a talent. It wouldn't be on the cards because Symbiosis is only class spells, not Talents.
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Re: Beta Retribution

Postby stevos » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:34 am

Nooska wrote:Thats because HP generation is more important than HP spending, so you only throw out a 3HP TV if you haven't got any HP generators to use (which is, iirc, all the other attacks for ret nowadays?)


I suspect i am being dense here, but i don't follow this.

If TV is fixed power if used at 3 or 5 HP, why not use it at 3.

If its because HP generators do more dmg, then why not just put TV at the bottom of the priority, its not like something bad happens when you hit 5 HP and stick there.

The EJ link is

http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t129896-ret ... l_players/
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Re: Beta Retribution

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:43 am

I suspect it's the same thing I intuited while playing around on my Windwalker today: It's better to have the extra power in reserve for when you need it. You can play exactly the same way with 2-5 Holy Power as with 0-3, except that when you need to quickly throw an extra HP ability out, you can do it.

For the Windwalker, I noticed the benefit simply because playing with 2 Chi banked allowed me to use Rising Sun Kick on cooldown even if I was out of energy, and made it much easier to maintain Tiger Power when I got no procs. The principle for Ret would be the same, even though you don't have the same buffs to manage and the resource constraints.
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Re: Beta Retribution

Postby stevos » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:05 am

KysenMurrin wrote:I suspect it's the same thing I intuited while playing around on my Windwalker today: It's better to have the extra power in reserve for when you need it. You can play exactly the same way with 2-5 Holy Power as with 0-3, except that when you need to quickly throw an extra HP ability out, you can do it.

For the Windwalker, I noticed the benefit simply because playing with 2 Chi banked allowed me to use Rising Sun Kick on cooldown even if I was out of energy, and made it much easier to maintain Tiger Power when I got no procs. The principle for Ret would be the same, even though you don't have the same buffs to manage and the resource constraints.


That kind of makes sense.
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Re: Beta Retribution

Postby Gab » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:17 pm

stevos wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:I suspect it's the same thing I intuited while playing around on my Windwalker today: It's better to have the extra power in reserve for when you need it. You can play exactly the same way with 2-5 Holy Power as with 0-3, except that when you need to quickly throw an extra HP ability out, you can do it.

For the Windwalker, I noticed the benefit simply because playing with 2 Chi banked allowed me to use Rising Sun Kick on cooldown even if I was out of energy, and made it much easier to maintain Tiger Power when I got no procs. The principle for Ret would be the same, even though you don't have the same buffs to manage and the resource constraints.


That kind of makes sense.


All it means is 5 is the new 3 which is beneficial because you get slightly more burst for things like... tendons... when you are only one HP generator from a second finisher. Also so that you might be able to squeeze in an extra finisher during cds/pots.

Edit: Obviously if you are going to wind up having an empty GCD a 3 or 4 HP TV is going to be better than waiting on something else to come off cd.
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Re: Beta Retribution

Postby Meloree » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:13 pm

stevos wrote:If TV is fixed power if used at 3 or 5 HP, why not use it at 3.


If you have 3HP and CS and J are both off cooldown, and you use the TV, then you've pushed back your holy power generation by a GCD. If you do that continually over the course of an encounter, you generate significantly less Holy Power, and thus use less TVs (and have more empty GCDs, and do less damage).

If you cast CS and then J (and get to 5HP), you're guaranteed to have an empty GCD before your next CS comes up, it's not possible to waste HP generation - thus, prioritizing CS and J over TV results in more CS and more J, and thus more TV.

Unless you're banking HP for burst, if you have an empty GCD and 3HP, you'll certainly use the TV ahead of using nothing. Similar logic prioritizes filler spells ahead of 3 or 4HP TVs - it's better to get them on cooldown, so that you have the chance to use more of them over the course of an encounter.

EDIT, because I missed this one:
KysenMurrin wrote:I suspect it's the same thing I intuited while playing around on my Windwalker today: It's better to have the extra power in reserve for when you need it. You can play exactly the same way with 2-5 Holy Power as with 0-3, except that when you need to quickly throw an extra HP ability out, you can do it.


That might be true circumstantially, and thus it's an extra benefit for playing towards optimal DPS, but the real answer is simply that it's optimal DPS to prioritize resource generators over fillers with cooldowns over things that can be timeshifted into any available GCD without loss.
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Re: Beta Retribution

Postby Qeeze » Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:57 pm

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/116 ... t-Judgment

The above thread might have been noticed by Blizzard.

Zarhym wrote:Judgement is once again a melee attack that has a 30-yard range. (Yes, re-read that to make sure you didn’t misread it...)

Edit: Judgement is also spelled Judgment now. The developers are playing nasty tricks on me to make sure I'm awake. :)


Zarhym wrote:
Lumineus wrote:

I'm starting to think something sinister must be going on if things are actually going well for Ret. In any case, this is a good change. Being a spell was just bad for all sorts of reasons.


It's a PvP nerf. Now it'll trigger Frost Armor and Nature's Grasp again.

Correct. This is the primary purpose of the change.


Thank goodness.
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Re: Beta Retribution

Postby rodos » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:57 pm

Meloree wrote:(a lot of very true stuff)

It's the same as how on live right now, if you have a DP proc but you have less than 3 HP and CS is off cooldown you should use CS over TV. HP generation is the limiting factor, so you should always try to maximize it.
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