LGBT rights discussion

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:06 am

halabar wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:According to what people believe of the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Murder, adultery, theft, etc. are also sins. Sins don't have tiers... you're either sinful or you aren't. In THAT context, they are equivalent. Outside of a biblical context though, it is harsh.


Spot on.

The thing is, most miss the point that Skye sees. The REAL point of Christianity here is that we are ALL sinners in some way, and need God's grace and mercy. The central idea is you can't look down on someone else because they are a worse sinner than you. Sinner is sinner. THAT is the key of the Christian faith. You can dismiss it, mock it, spew vile at it, but that's the core of the faith.

this is exactly it
the whole point of (well at least mormon) proselyting is to reach out to those that are worse sinners and bring them to god so they may find forgiveness for thier sins and become better people

not dam them in the name of christ

wtb the jesus pic from the frustrations thread that i think invis posted

Amirya wrote:
halabar wrote:The REAL point of Christianity here is that we are ALL sinners in some way, and need God's grace and mercy.

Speak for yourself. I'm perfect in every way that counts.

:wink:

*snickers*
not touching this one
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Koatanga » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:56 am

Skye1013 wrote:According to what people believe of the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Murder, adultery, theft, etc. are also sins. Sins don't have tiers... you're either sinful or you aren't. In THAT context, they are equivalent. Outside of a biblical context though, it is harsh.

Working on the Sabbath is a sin, but people do that all the time and there are no laws to prevent it. Eating certain foods is a sin, but again it's ignored and considered just fine. There are myriad sins in the Bible that are common events today and nobody has a problem with it.

Shaving is a sin.
Touching the skin of a pig is a sin.
Getting a tattoo is a sin.
Disobeying your parents is a sin.
It is a sin for a woman who is raped not to marry her rapist.

Birth control is a sin. Same-sex relationship is a sin. Know why those have survived as sins even though it's OK to touch pigs and get tattoos? Because if you have a same-sex relationship or use birth control, you won't be spewing out tons of babies who will be brought up as believers who will spread the word around.

Touching a pig doesn't hurt the church. Not having offspring to spread the word hurts the church.

That's why homosexuality survived as a sin all these years, and it's the only reason why.

People pick and choose which of god's laws they find convenient to follow, and then strut around proclaiming them and absolute, which is the height of absurdity. On the subject of gay marriage, I don't think absurdity should have any influence.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:53 am

Koatanga wrote:
Working on the Sabbath is a sin, but people do that all the time and there are no laws to prevent it. Eating certain foods is a sin, but again it's ignored and considered just fine. There are myriad sins in the Bible that are common events today and nobody has a problem with it.

Shaving is a sin.
Touching the skin of a pig is a sin.
Getting a tattoo is a sin.
Disobeying your parents is a sin.
It is a sin for a woman who is raped not to marry her rapist.

Birth control is a sin. Same-sex relationship is a sin. Know why those have survived as sins even though it's OK to touch pigs and get tattoos? Because if you have a same-sex relationship or use birth control, you won't be spewing out tons of babies who will be brought up as believers who will spread the word around.

Touching a pig doesn't hurt the church. Not having offspring to spread the word hurts the church.

That's why homosexuality survived as a sin all these years, and it's the only reason why.

People pick and choose which of god's laws they find convenient to follow, and then strut around proclaiming them and absolute, which is the height of absurdity. On the subject of gay marriage, I don't think absurdity should have any influence.


This is the problem. You have taken all of those things out of context, and aren't looking at things in historical context. I already touched on this before, and I guess I will say it again.

Shaving wasn't a sin, it was against the law. There were multiple reasons for this, but we'll take it down to the common denominator. It was against the law, because wandering around in the wilderness so many thousands of years ago, didn't offer people the ability to have great shaving utensils, and in response doing so, could leave to you being injured, cutting your major arteries, and you could fucking die. It was also a way to distinguish those of the faith from those other cultures of the time that weren't believers.

Getting a tattoo was NEVER a sin. That is quite possibly one of the two most misquoted, taken out of context portions of the bible EVER It says that you aren't to mark yourself in rememberence of the dead. This is, (as I've posted before) not tattooing, this is in reference to another culture that would cut, burn, disfigure, or even MAIM themselves after the death of someone.

Touching the skin of a pig, and consuming a pig, WAS FOR PRACTICAL REASONS. Because they didn't have the ability to treat, cure, cook, the food in such a way that would prevent the skin from rotting, and the meat for going bad, or being fully cooked. It was a Law because YOU COULD FUCKING DIE.

And then here comes the most important part, that non believers don't know, and that believers over look.


Leviticus' laws don't matter anymore. And the bible itself tells you that.

Paul says in Hebrews (a letter written to the church leaders of the Hewbrew followers), that anyone still living under the law, is living under a curse. The birth, and death of Christ created a new Covenant between man and god.

It is the reason that a lot of things changed at that point. It is also the reason that I have multiple, serious, problems with behavior of the a lot of organized churches, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Pentocostal, you name it.

They have apparently forgotten (or choose to ignore when needed) that The New Testament created the new covenant between man and god, and things like Penance, Confession, and Eternal Salvation are outdated concepts of Faith in "God the Christian" god.



Gab wrote:
Shoju wrote:And as we have seen from several members here, Gays are right, and anyone who follows religion is some sort of mouth breathing idiot worthy of scathing criticism.


SMH...

Edit: Spelling and We must have been reading different threads, because there was nothing even remotely close to that kind of a statement made.


No, you just don't want to admit it.

Lieris wrote:I can't stand religious people like you who try to make out that they do not hate gay people all the while calling their relationships a sin and being against equal rights. We do not believe you, we know you are a hateful nasty human being hiding behind religion to justify your prejudices and that platitudes like "love the sinner" are as fake as they are demeaning.


I'll just post this one, because I'm not trying to call people out and start a fight here. I'm trying to rationally discuss it, and everyone else touched on the rest of your post so I don't need to either.

There are multiple other posts in the discussion while in the post your frustrations thread that refer to christian people as wrong, crazy, the problem.






Nikachelle wrote:I think calling gay people the same thing as murderers, adulterers and thiefs is far worse than name calling.


The point Nika, is that in religion, there is no difference in the degree of sin as others have pointed out. Lying, being gay, murdering, stealing, being disrespectful, having an affair, taking the lord's name in vain, it's all the same. It is all sin.

Is it rough? Sure, maybe. But It is the belief system. Take it or leave it. The problem is that the Old Testament is the History lesson, and the New Testament is the laws, and covenant, and a lot of people forget that.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:59 am

Here
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Gab » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:08 am

halabar wrote:The thing is, most miss the point that Skye sees. The REAL point of Christianity here is that we are ALL sinners in some way, and need God's grace and mercy. The central idea is you can't look down on someone else because they are a worse sinner than you. Sinner is sinner. THAT is the key of the Christian faith. You can dismiss it, mock it, spew vile at it, but that's the core of the faith.


I can appreciate that is the key of Christianity. The thing that bothers me, other than the picking and choosing of "laws" that are followed, is that some of these religious groups are fine with all sinners having the same rights except for gays. And that they actively try to keep gays from having those rights. If all sins are equal in the eyes of your God than why should gays still be treated as if they are inhuman?

And it's mighty large stretch to say Lieris' post comes even close to such an absolute statement as EVERYONE who follows religion is a "mouth breathing idiot". Maybe that was just an extreme flair for the dramatic, but again nothing even remotely close to that came out of the frustrations.... "discussion".

I will say this though, and this is my opinion, anyone who says love the sinner hate the sin but is against gay rights IS a "mouth breathing idiot".

I'm with Marcus, why do we need some ancient book, which is continuously misinterpreted and is no longer even the word of "God" because it has been bastardized so many times by the men who have translated or edited it, to tell us whether we are good or not and how we should live our lives?

Edit: The bible could have read "any man who does not lie with another man is an abomination" we don't know and there is no way to know. Christians are living off the idea that this book is God's words but it's not, it's the men who got their hands on it's words.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Lieris » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:48 am

I specifically said "I can't stand religious people like you who". *It was not a blanket statement about all religious people* (not sure if you have noticed but there are an increasing number of christian congregations that accept gay people and their relationships FULLY) just those who expect gay people to be tolerant of their hateful views and attempt hollow platitudes like that love the sinner rubbish. I have experienced first hand how disingenuous and hurtful such statements are so don't expect me to swallow that garbage, I am not that naive.

This topic has derailed into being a theology discussion and I would appreciate it if went back to being on topic.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:15 am

Shoju wrote:Getting a tattoo was NEVER a sin. That is quite possibly one of the two most misquoted, taken out of context portions of the bible EVER It says that you aren't to mark yourself in rememberence of the dead. This is, (as I've posted before) not tattooing, this is in reference to another culture that would cut, burn, disfigure, or even MAIM themselves after the death of someone.

this also depends on the sect of christianity, as according to the LDS word of wisdom, any markings or bodily modifications are deemed a sin basically (i dont remember the exact wording now after a near decade out of the church, but that is basically it)
no tattoos, no peircings except one pair of small un obtrusive for females only
no decorative scarring, and no implants or such (yes according to my plastic surgeon bishop, breast implants were included...you think of weird things as a teenage mormon boy)
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:16 am

Lieris wrote:I specifically said "I can't stand religious people like you who". *It was not a blanket statement about all religious people* (not sure if you have noticed but there are an increasing number of christian congregations that accept gay people and their relationships FULLY) just those who expect gay people to be tolerant of their hateful views and attempt hollow platitudes like that love the sinner rubbish. I have experienced first hand how disingenuous and hurtful such statements are so don't expect me to swallow that garbage, I am not that naive.

This topic has derailed into being a theology discussion and I would appreciate it if went back to being on topic.


You do realize that the statement

"I can't stand religious people like you who"

Doesn't necessarily drive home the point that you are specifically speaking about "people like poptart" instead of "religious people" (which poptart is) as a whole, and that doesn't change the fact that it was an inflammatory statement, that supports my point.

You, Lev, and others made disparaging remarks about people who live and follow religion. I was simply pointing out that it works both ways. If there is ever going to be even a semblance of LGBT rights in the world, it's only going to come when both sides are capable of not hurling insults at the other side, at least in a "grand scheme of things" type of setting.

There has to be a respect to let people believe what they want to believe without having to insult their ideologies.


@BLDavis

I was specificially speaking of Leviticus, not specific / relgious / church / denomination doctrine.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:22 am

because we're straying from the main point

Here
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78776.html
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:26 am

Shoju wrote:@BLDavis

I was specificially speaking of Leviticus, not specific / relgious / church / denomination doctrine.

yeah i know

i was just pointing out that while Lev it might not say anything, but in modern society, it can be made to say w/e someone wants it to
just like the rest of the bible

hell just like our constitution, and it is only what 240 yrs old?
hell of a lot younger then even the most recent addition to the bible (and not translated as much)
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:29 am

bldavis wrote:hell just like our constitution, and it is only what 240 yrs old?
hell of a lot younger then even the most recent addition to the bible (and not translated as much)


Heck, you don't have to go that far back, there are books about Elvis' eating habits and the recipe for his favorite fried chicken and none seem to match with each other, and this was 50 years ago.

You're talking about something that happened one generation removed from us (at least for the majority of us), in a country where most of us are literate, where there was long distance communications and where things were more easily verifiable.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Gab » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:30 am

Shoju wrote:
You do realize that the statement

"I can't stand religious people like you who"

Doesn't necessarily drive home the point that you are specifically speaking about "people like poptart" instead of "religious people" (which poptart is) as a whole, and that doesn't change the fact that it was an inflammatory statement, that supports my point.


And you do realize that you are leaving out the most important part of what Lieris said "who try to make out that they do not hate gay people all the while calling their relationships a sin and being against equal rights." That most definitely drives home the point that Lieris was specifically speaking about "people like poptart" and not EVERYONE who is religious like you keep claiming which is complete nonsense.

You keep making it out that everyone is anti-religion when, in fact, we are just pro human rights. Maybe that's a sin too?
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Lieris » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:50 am

Shoju wrote:
Lieris wrote:I specifically said "I can't stand religious people like you who". *It was not a blanket statement about all religious people* (not sure if you have noticed but there are an increasing number of christian congregations that accept gay people and their relationships FULLY) just those who expect gay people to be tolerant of their hateful views and attempt hollow platitudes like that love the sinner rubbish. I have experienced first hand how disingenuous and hurtful such statements are so don't expect me to swallow that garbage, I am not that naive.

This topic has derailed into being a theology discussion and I would appreciate it if went back to being on topic.


You do realize that the statement

"I can't stand religious people like you who"

Doesn't necessarily drive home the point that you are specifically speaking about "people like poptart" instead of "religious people" (which poptart is) as a whole, and that doesn't change the fact that it was an inflammatory statement, that supports my point.

You, Lev, and others made disparaging remarks about people who live and follow religion. I was simply pointing out that it works both ways. If there is ever going to be even a semblance of LGBT rights in the world, it's only going to come when both sides are capable of not hurling insults at the other side, at least in a "grand scheme of things" type of setting.

There has to be a respect to let people believe what they want to believe without having to insult their ideologies.


@BLDavis

I was specificially speaking of Leviticus, not specific / relgious / church / denomination doctrine.


Get over yourself.

If we worried about bruised egos we would not have a fraction of the advances we've made in LGBT rights in the UK over the last 10 years because *IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!*. And if you expect us to turn the other cheek while our relationships get compared to pedophilia and bestiality by the religious right and us put on the same level as fraudsters and murderers by people claiming to be moderates then you have another thing coming.

Fortunately not all religious people are like that, they will be the ones on the right side of history. After all the bible advocates slavery but that didn't stop some christians from campaigning for its abolishment.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby katraya » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:56 am

That Queen Victoria quote is a big part of why she is most most hated historical figure. I have quite a few though.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby halabar » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:27 am

Koatanga wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:According to what people believe of the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Murder, adultery, theft, etc. are also sins. Sins don't have tiers... you're either sinful or you aren't. In THAT context, they are equivalent. Outside of a biblical context though, it is harsh.

Working on the Sabbath is a sin, but people do that all the time and there are no laws to prevent it. Eating certain foods is a sin, but again it's ignored and considered just fine. There are myriad sins in the Bible that are common events today and nobody has a problem with it.

Shaving is a sin.
Touching the skin of a pig is a sin.
Getting a tattoo is a sin.
Disobeying your parents is a sin.
It is a sin for a woman who is raped not to marry her rapist.

Birth control is a sin. Same-sex relationship is a sin. Know why those have survived as sins even though it's OK to touch pigs and get tattoos? Because if you have a same-sex relationship or use birth control, you won't be spewing out tons of babies who will be brought up as believers who will spread the word around.

Touching a pig doesn't hurt the church. Not having offspring to spread the word hurts the church.

That's why homosexuality survived as a sin all these years, and it's the only reason why.

People pick and choose which of god's laws they find convenient to follow, and then strut around proclaiming them and absolute, which is the height of absurdity. On the subject of gay marriage, I don't think absurdity should have any influence.


Shoju did a fine job, but I'll just add that most of what you refer to is the old jewish law, which the majority of christians don't follow (nor are they under that law). They are similar to the Amish rules.

Homosexuality (and other things) are not part of that.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby halabar » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:34 am

Gab wrote:I can appreciate that is the key of Christianity. The thing that bothers me, other than the picking and choosing of "laws" that are followed, is that some of these religious groups are fine with all sinners having the same rights except for gays. And that they actively try to keep gays from having those rights. If all sins are equal in the eyes of your God than why should gays still be treated as if they are inhuman?


First off... what are these "rights" you are talking about? In the US, homosexuality is already basically a protected class, meaning they have more rights than a straight white male.

So all the grandstanding about "rights" makes it sound like they aren't allowed to breathe.

All the fuss is really about one word. Marriage. As has been said numerous times before, get the government out of the marriage business, doing civil unions instead, and the case is closed.

Now gay adoption might be another issue... and their are no easy answers there, as there are many lifestyle issues (gay or straight) that are involved.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby halabar » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:38 am

Lieris wrote:Fortunately not all religious people are like that, they will be the ones on the right side of history. After all the bible advocates slavery but that didn't stop some christians from campaigning for its abolishment.


Another lie.

The bible deals with it because it was part of the culture back then. At the time it was written, if you owned money, you were basically a slave. That does not mean the bible advocates it.

And Leiris, I won't compromise my faith to fit your ideals and comfort level.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Lieris » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:45 am

halabar wrote:First off... what are these "rights" you are talking about? In the US, homosexuality is already basically a protected class, meaning they have more rights than a straight white male.


This speaks for itself. No need for much comment. Get over your persecution complex, you are ridiculous.

The church shouldn't get to decide who can marry who, marriage as an institution is far older than christianity. You do not have a monopoly on marriage.

If the bible was the word of god, why didn't he abolish slavery through his word? That would have been a lot more constructive than condoning rape of slaves, beating of slaves and demanding that slaves be loyal to their masters. Feel free to do whatever mental gymnastics you like to convince yourself that this isn't clear approval of slavery.

I will also point out that same sex couples have been able to adopt for some years now in the UK and the fabric of our society hasn't crumbled.

And again, stop making this about you. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby halabar » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:47 am

Lieris wrote:And again, stop making this about you. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.


It's not about you either, nor your hatred of anyone with a different viewpoint.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Gab » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:03 am

Shoju wrote:And as we have seen from several members here, Gays are right, and anyone who follows religion is some sort of mouth breathing idiot worthy of scathing criticism.


halabar wrote: It's not about you either, nor your hatred of anyone with a different viewpoint.


halabar wrote:In the US, homosexuality is already basically a protected class, meaning they have more rights than a straight white male.


It's pretty aparent that we're not going to get anywhere in this thread with the made up crusade that some people have taken up.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:06 am

im trying to stay out of the religious side, esp when most involved have me on realid and can chew my ass in game

but really?
no body is asking you to give up your beliefs
hell im atheist/agnostic/wtf but i have no problem with you being religious
ffs i live with my mormon parents who are trying to get me back in church

all we ask is you keep your religion and not shove it into politics, down everybody's throats or anything like that
same goes for the other side
the religious arent evil, and they also have the right to have an opinion

this isnt LGBT discussion anymore
this is bash each others beliefs

unless i am missing something, no body has said anything about changing your belief systems or compromising your faith
all that was asked is for tolerance and to follow christs example (if you are of that persuasion)

if your faith system says gays are sinners, fine...
thump your bibles and froth at the mouth if you want, but do it in your home or church

we are all human beings, and each human being has rights
would we be having this argument if the LGBT issue wasnt on the table?
what if it was inter-racial marriage instead of same-sex?
would you still be throwing a fit?

if we can keep it civil and not flame each other and their point of views, then we can have a decent discussion
but as of right now, there are a few in the middle, but on either side there are some MTadins with their fingers in their ears yelling LALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU YOU'RE WRONG IM RIGHT!

the ONLY way we as a species, and a community specifically, will get through this is if we have a civil discussion
unless that happens, all we will get is a bunch of butt-hurt posters
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Lieris » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:12 am

halabar wrote:
Lieris wrote:And again, stop making this about you. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.


It's not about you either, nor your hatred of anyone with a different viewpoint.


LGBT rights are not about me? That's quite the stretch!

And you can stop with the whole "you hate people with opinions different to you" rubbish please. I don't think even you believe that nor its efficacy in diverting attention away from your own homophobia. I think this forum is smart enough to see through it.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Lieris » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:29 am

bldavis wrote:if we can keep it civil and not flame each other and their point of views, then we can have a decent discussion
but as of right now, there are a few in the middle, but on either side there are some MTadins with their fingers in their ears yelling LALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU YOU'RE WRONG IM RIGHT!

the ONLY way we as a species, and a community specifically, will get through this is if we have a civil discussion
unless that happens, all we will get is a bunch of butt-hurt posters


I appreciate what you are trying to do and your heart is in the right place but just like racists shouldn't be given a platform on this forum and treated with civility, nor should homophobes. You can't expect a queer person to just accept another person who wants to deny them some of the most important things in life (marriage and parenthood) anymore than you should expect a woman to accept a misogynist who thinks marital rape should be legal again or a black person accept a racist who wants to bring back segregation.

Of course there is going to be anger and hurt expressed. If someone is surprised at that then they are a very privileged person. It drags up bitter and painful memories.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:48 am

tbh, and i know i am going to step on some toes here and i...no im not sorry for it
the LGBT side of this discussion have been the more open side for the most part
ive had more WTF moments from those thumping bibles

but flaming each other wont get us anywhere
you know what eye for an eye gets you?
everyone is fucking blind!

there is a reason you can have a discussion with an adult, but not with a 3 yr old
though with some of the posters recently, im not sure they are adults

im not saying forget your pasts, and your struggles, or any of that
same as i am not saying the religious side should give up their beliefs
im just saying stop standing there with your arms crossed and chin down defiently and maybe listen

i am not christian, nor am i LGBT
so i am on neither side
but before anyone says i dont know what it is like, all i am going to say is i grew up mormon, and there is still a massive prejudice against them in areas
i admit it isnt the same as what others have had to go through, but dont think for a second it wasnt a struggle or that i dont have terrible memories i still deal with
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Passionario » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:32 pm

Lieris wrote:I appreciate what you are trying to do and your heart is in the right place but just like racists shouldn't be given a platform on this forum and treated with civility, nor should homophobes.


The Code of Conduct says that we are supposed to treat each other with civility and with consideration to other posters' viewpoints, even if they happen to be wrong. Doesn't contain any special exceptions for homophobia, either.

If you find yourself unable to respond civilly, it is advisable not to respond at all. Report, ignore and move on.
If you are not the flame, you're the fuel.
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