LGBT rights discussion

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:18 am

The biggest thing that America needs to push it forward is a good marketing campaign aimed at the religious explaining why they should support the rights, even if they don't support "the people".

You aren't going to change their minds about religion, and you shouldn't try. 3+ billion people in the world subscribe to a religion that identifies it as a "sin", and that doesn't even count the people who don't subscribe to a religion who have a problem with it, or underdeveloped parts of the world.

What you need to do, is get people to understand that by preserving the rights of those they don't agree with, you are actually preserving their rights as well. My parents are still involved in a church (thankfully not the same that I grew up in), and their current "big deal" is that in some countries it is illegal to be a practicing Christian (or at least that is what the spin is, I haven't investigated myself).

The way that I was finally able to have a rational discussion with my parents, was to get them to realize that currently, the LGBT community is in the same spot that they feel these christians in other countries are in. They are denied rights, they are denied equal and fair treatment under the law. Once I got them to see it that way, I was able to bring them around to talking about the idea that by preserving LGBT rights, you are in fact preserving their own rights. Everyone should have the right to the life that they choose within the law. IF it isn't illegal to be gay, it shouldn't be illegal to be "married".

While it's a stretch, and I know my parents still aren't 100% on board, they can at least have intelligent conversations with me now, something that we couldn't have even as recently as 3 years ago.

Get the Religious to see that preserving someone else's rights will in the long run serve to preserve their own, and you make progress.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby crazyharry » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:12 am

Shoju wrote:
and their current "big deal" is that in some countries it is illegal to be a practicing Christian (or at least that is what the spin is, I haven't investigated myself).


Intriguing, just looked into it. It would seem there is a list of 51 countries where it is illeagal to be a christian floating about. Further investigation shows it is perfectly legal to be a Christian in these countries but Christians are a minority and in some of them suffer all the shit minorities have to put up with.

The closest I could find to it actually being true is in some islamic countries it is illegal to convert from Islam to Christianity and the punishments vary from country to country ranging from a weary shrug to the death penalty.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:25 am

Which even furthers the point I could drive home with my parents, and many others like them. You cry, and lament, and fear for your fellow christians in countries that are being "persecuted".

Now you know how they feel. Now you know how it feels to watch as those just like you are denied rights.

Now. Let's stop this silliness, and stop denying rights to others in our own country, just because their belief system / values / morals are different than yours.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby katraya » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:28 am

Shoju wrote:The biggest thing that America needs to push it forward is a good marketing campaign aimed at the religious explaining why they should support the rights, even if they don't support "the people".



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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby katraya » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:47 am

Same-sex marriage was recently legalized in Maryland but it won't start until January. In November there will be a ballot item trying to block the law going into effect. This pisses me off to know end. I don't think civil rights matters should ever be open to majority vote. I'm making my fiance get his ass registered to vote this weekend. I don't care what else he does but the vote is projected to be close and we need every person we can get.

For myself, I won't eat at Chick Fillete. I would likewise boycott anyone else who was so openly funding something I was against this strongly. There aren't many others that I know of and I am not sure if that is a reflection of the state of things or my ignorance. As an individual I only have so much power but I do have the availability to put my money where my mouth is.

In planning our wedding I have also only used gay-friendly vendors. There haven't been many that I looked at who weren't but it's still something that I checked.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:35 am

crazyharry wrote:
Shoju wrote:
and their current "big deal" is that in some countries it is illegal to be a practicing Christian (or at least that is what the spin is, I haven't investigated myself).


Intriguing, just looked into it. It would seem there is a list of 51 countries where it is illeagal to be a christian floating about. Further investigation shows it is perfectly legal to be a Christian in these countries but Christians are a minority and in some of them suffer all the shit minorities have to put up with.

The closest I could find to it actually being true is in some islamic countries it is illegal to convert from Islam to Christianity and the punishments vary from country to country ranging from a weary shrug to the death penalty.


If you really want to discuss that, instead of dismissing it, I'll dig up details.

What you fail to mention is that in many of those countries, like China, if you don't go to the "state" church, you are subject to being put in jail at their whim. Or in Indonesia, where it's perfectly legal, but the local islamic mob is likely to come around and burn your church, your house, and chop your family to bits.

Or you could talk about several countries in central west africa, where it's basically a religious civil war.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:37 am

And it's In-N-Out fries (nevermind that irony) but they have to be hot.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby bldavis » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:11 am

another example (albeit a bit extreme) would be something that happened in the US
in Missouri in the 1830s (i think, might be the 40s) there a governer's order for the extermination of mormons
iow, you could be killed for even being thought of as a mormon, or living in a mormon town

LGBT can at least live in peace (most places)
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:37 pm

halabar wrote:
crazyharry wrote:
Shoju wrote:
and their current "big deal" is that in some countries it is illegal to be a practicing Christian (or at least that is what the spin is, I haven't investigated myself).


Intriguing, just looked into it. It would seem there is a list of 51 countries where it is illeagal to be a christian floating about. Further investigation shows it is perfectly legal to be a Christian in these countries but Christians are a minority and in some of them suffer all the shit minorities have to put up with.

The closest I could find to it actually being true is in some islamic countries it is illegal to convert from Islam to Christianity and the punishments vary from country to country ranging from a weary shrug to the death penalty.


If you really want to discuss that, instead of dismissing it, I'll dig up details.

What you fail to mention is that in many of those countries, like China, if you don't go to the "state" church, you are subject to being put in jail at their whim. Or in Indonesia, where it's perfectly legal, but the local islamic mob is likely to come around and burn your church, your house, and chop your family to bits.

Or you could talk about several countries in central west africa, where it's basically a religious civil war.


And that's even better. With pastor's going out and saying that they should round up the gays and put them in prison camps, and that they should beat their children for being gay. Yes. truly. This is the type of problem that Christianity is faced with, and the reason that churches, and parishioners need to take a step back, and realize that their opinions about the gay community are bordering on the same type of opinions that they are in a tizzy about in other countries.

If you worry about your christian brother around the world who is dealing with hardships, yet agree with people voicing their desire to impose those same hardships on people in your own country, there is a problem.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Fivelives » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:03 pm

It's not the people of our generation that you have to change. It's the same people who call us every time their VCR clock is flashing 12:00, or who try to pass stupid laws saying that video game violence causes real life violence, or any number of stupid decisions.

Those are the people whose viewpoints need to change. We joke about the old people that sit on their lawns with rock salt-loaded shotguns shouting "GET ORF MY LAWN" here on this forum, but those are the people who are overwhelmingly against gay marriage. They're the most likely to be religious, conservative, and any number of other labels that add up to one thing: against LGBT rights.

And pretty much everything from the time the emancipation proclamation was signed into law until the end of segregation is the civil rights battle.

Lasting change takes time, in any area you can think of. In cases of public opinion, that means we're talking in generational terms. Be patient, it'll happen.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby katraya » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:33 pm

Shoju wrote:
And that's even better. With pastor's going out and saying that they should round up the gays and put them in prison camps, and that they should beat their children for being gay. Yes. truly. This is the type of problem that Christianity is faced with, and the reason that churches, and parishioners need to take a step back, and realize that their opinions about the gay community are bordering on the same type of opinions that they are in a tizzy about in other countries.

If you worry about your christian brother around the world who is dealing with hardships, yet agree with people voicing their desire to impose those same hardships on people in your own country, there is a problem.


While I completely agree with your argument and think it makes total logical sense I don't see it going very far. To these people they're following the one true religion while gay people are an abomination who will spend eternity burning in hell. Most people who are against gay marriage for religious reasons aren't going to empathize with gays because gays are wrong and they're right.

Logic isn't going to breach that wall. I wish it would though.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Lightbeard » Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:17 pm

Nikachelle wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:
A response from Chipotle:
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Is this for real? Cuz... L.O.L.


Fairly sure this is a fake quote, just off of what I tried to research on it.

I can't find anything on anyone named Rodrigo Chipotle, and a commentor on the imgur post of this picture posted this

As someone who works at Chipotle, I call fake. There is no "Rodrigo Chipotle". It was started by Steve Ells. They drill it into our heads.


It also doesn't come across as something a business such as Chipotle would or could openly say without receiving some kind of media attention.


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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:47 pm

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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:55 pm

katraya wrote:
Shoju wrote:
And that's even better. With pastor's going out and saying that they should round up the gays and put them in prison camps, and that they should beat their children for being gay. Yes. truly. This is the type of problem that Christianity is faced with, and the reason that churches, and parishioners need to take a step back, and realize that their opinions about the gay community are bordering on the same type of opinions that they are in a tizzy about in other countries.

If you worry about your christian brother around the world who is dealing with hardships, yet agree with people voicing their desire to impose those same hardships on people in your own country, there is a problem.


While I completely agree with your argument and think it makes total logical sense I don't see it going very far. To these people they're following the one true religion while gay people are an abomination who will spend eternity burning in hell. Most people who are against gay marriage for religious reasons aren't going to empathize with gays because gays are wrong and they're right.

Logic isn't going to breach that wall. I wish it would though.



And as we have seen from several members here, Gays are right, and anyone who follows religion is some sort of mouth breathing idiot worthy of scathing criticism. It goes both ways.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:05 pm

Hey, I try to strike a balance! So don't lump me with the loonies on either side!
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:09 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Hey, I try to strike a balance! So don't lump me with the loonies on either side!


Oh no, I'm not lumping anyone in on either side, just that we have seen that both sides can at times be unreasonable right here. Hell, I see the perspective of both sides, and there are those on both sides that are just not willing to speak without hurling insults, while simultaneously complaining about the other side throwing insults.

My statement wasn't meant to encompass all of either side, just pointing out that the converse is also true.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:15 pm

Actually, I knew I was not amongst them... just hard to convey slight sarcasm through text. XD
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Gab » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:34 pm

Shoju wrote:Oh no, I'm not lumping anyone in on either side, just that we have seen that both sides can at times be unreasonable right here. Hell, I see the perspective of both sides, and there are those on both sides that are just not willing to speak without hurling insults, while simultaneously complaining about the other side throwing insults.

My statement wasn't meant to encompass all of either side, just pointing out that the converse is also true.


Look at what he said and where he said it. It wasn't even reasonable to post it so why would you think he would get any less than he did? He was defending a "mouth breathing idiot", guilty by association. All that was said was:

Skye1013 wrote:Chick Fil A is anti-gay.
This makes me a sad panda.


You're not lumping anyone in on either side? Weird cause I thought you said...

Shoju wrote:And as we have seen from several members here, Gays are right, and anyone who follows religion is some sort of mouth breathing idiot worthy of scathing criticism.


SMH...

Edit: Spelling and We must have been reading different threads, because there was nothing even remotely close to that kind of a statement made.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:43 pm

shoju has a point though. some people resorted to ad hominem... as much as i dont agree with poptart, i never resorted to call him names...
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:20 pm

I think calling gay people the same thing as murderers, adulterers and thiefs is far worse than name calling.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:26 pm

Nikachelle wrote:I think calling gay people the same thing as murderers, adulterers and thiefs is far worse than name calling.


i agree, but just because he went with the lowest common denominator doesnt mean i have to lower myself when i push forward a counter argument.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:47 pm

According to what people believe of the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Murder, adultery, theft, etc. are also sins. Sins don't have tiers... you're either sinful or you aren't. In THAT context, they are equivalent. Outside of a biblical context though, it is harsh.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:59 pm

I think the funny part is that the reason why I'm so open minded is that my zeyde was really openminded for being a jew.

He married a goyim, didn't force anyone in the family to follow his religion, and while still a practicing jew, he always felt that if you lived a honorable life but were sent to hell because you ate shrimp, against the laws of the torah, then yahweh was kinda petty.

I think my poor zeyde is spinning in his grave that my uncle is a complete batshit insane SBC pastor that preaches about "bombing iran in the name of jesus", I guess in part because he hangs around with a lot of messianic jews
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:54 pm

Skye1013 wrote:According to what people believe of the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. Murder, adultery, theft, etc. are also sins. Sins don't have tiers... you're either sinful or you aren't. In THAT context, they are equivalent. Outside of a biblical context though, it is harsh.


Spot on.

The thing is, most miss the point that Skye sees. The REAL point of Christianity here is that we are ALL sinners in some way, and need God's grace and mercy. The central idea is you can't look down on someone else because they are a worse sinner than you. Sinner is sinner. THAT is the key of the Christian faith. You can dismiss it, mock it, spew vile at it, but that's the core of the faith.
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Re: LGBT rights discussion

Postby Amirya » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:01 am

halabar wrote:The REAL point of Christianity here is that we are ALL sinners in some way, and need God's grace and mercy.

Speak for yourself. I'm perfect in every way that counts.

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