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Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the EU

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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:25 pm

Shoju wrote:You paid 25 bucks for a stuffed animal

A fucking adorable stuffed animal.

Where do you sit on stuff like that though? Is that also not acceptable (to you), since I bought the stuffed animal, and got the digital item as well?

I can imagine I know what your answer will be though, since so far all of them have been "I don't like it."
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:12 pm

degre wrote:
halabar wrote:
degre wrote:When talking about accounts is way different, you never owned anything, I think I've seen it explained already somewhere, but to make a point, you are 'renting' a login with very specific rules (TOS/EULA) and those rules say that your lease doesn't allow you to be passed to someone else.


Agreed, under the current laws (or lack thereof). My point in all of this though, is that there need to be a broader discussion regarding "ownership" in regards to virtual goods, and that Blizz (and other developers) have opened the door on this by selling items for real currency.

Well, items for currency have now been sold for ages, the point is still that whatever you pay for is linked to the account that you are given to use, you aren't strictly buying anything, it's more like you are paying to unlock certain benefits.


And that works a bit better when there are actual benefits, such as the Rift boosts or LoTR packs.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Mannstein » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:29 am

halabar wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:If I buy a pet from the Blizzard store... what are the rules on that one? I just purchased it (which should mean I own it, yes?) However I have no possible way to sell it to someone else once I've attached it to my account, since it is bound to the account. If it's for some reason different, then I suppose I don't really own the plushie that came with the Windrider Cub either.


You certainly don't own the pixels, nor the database record that marks that they are bound to your account, nor the design, nor the programming animation.

I do think you should have to right to transfer it to another player. Shoju would disagree.


I have friends that use that when buying CD's. They buy a game\movie\music, try to make a copy and some CD's are protected. Since they cannot make a safety copy (that they are allowed by law)they go back to the store and complain, since the store cannot give them a CD that you can copy, they are forced to return the money.
Why can they do it? Because the wife is a lawier.

Unability to sell you game CD's, unability to sell you digital pets are all already illegal here, the issue is that for 10/20/30€ it's too much of a PITA to go into court or complain... :S
But in terms of accounts you aren't buying a account, you are buying a monthly licence to play a game. So you cannot sell it.

But it's all semantics and law... You can't by law forbid someone from re-selling the digital pets?
Just do a promotion. Buy 1month premium subscription and you get a pet added to the account.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:35 am

Skye1013 wrote:
Shoju wrote:You paid 25 bucks for a stuffed animal

A fucking adorable stuffed animal.

Where do you sit on stuff like that though? Is that also not acceptable (to you), since I bought the stuffed animal, and got the digital item as well?

I can imagine I know what your answer will be though, since so far all of them have been "I don't like it."


From a business model perspective: Totally cool with that, as long as it's understood that you purchased a stuffed animal and got the pixels as a "freebie" or a "bonus".

It still isn't something I would.... "do" as a player, but as long as its "BUY OUR SUPER CUTE PLUSH TOY and get a nifty thing in game!" I'm ok with it.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby degre » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:49 am

Mannstein wrote:
halabar wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:If I buy a pet from the Blizzard store... what are the rules on that one? I just purchased it (which should mean I own it, yes?) However I have no possible way to sell it to someone else once I've attached it to my account, since it is bound to the account. If it's for some reason different, then I suppose I don't really own the plushie that came with the Windrider Cub either.


You certainly don't own the pixels, nor the database record that marks that they are bound to your account, nor the design, nor the programming animation.

I do think you should have to right to transfer it to another player. Shoju would disagree.


I have friends that use that when buying CD's. They buy a game\movie\music, try to make a copy and some CD's are protected. Since they cannot make a safety copy (that they are allowed by law)they go back to the store and complain, since the store cannot give them a CD that you can copy, they are forced to return the money.
Why can they do it? Because the wife is a lawier.

Unability to sell you game CD's, unability to sell you digital pets are all already illegal here, the issue is that for 10/20/30€ it's too much of a PITA to go into court or complain... :S
But in terms of accounts you aren't buying a account, you are buying a monthly licence to play a game. So you cannot sell it.

But it's all semantics and law... You can't by law forbid someone from re-selling the digital pets?
Just do a promotion. Buy 1month premium subscription and you get a pet added to the account.

I have no idea what HERE means, but I would suggest that you verify your statement, as buying a CD and adding a digital pet to your account are two very different actions, whereas in the case of the CD you are acquiring the property, in the second case you are not acquiring any property, but the right to use a bunch of pixels in your leased account, hence the regulation related to the pet should be limited by the contract you have accepted when starting the lease.

It's like renting a car, they charge you X for the rental and then they tell you that for a one-off price they will always give you a free full tank of gas. That one off purchase is strictly limited to your rentals and you can't sell to anyone else your right to a tank of gas with every rental as it's limited by the rental regulation.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Flex » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:26 am

Skye1013 wrote:If I buy a pet from the Blizzard store... what are the rules on that one?


You purchased a code that grants you it. I look at it like food. Once you eat the food you can't give it to someone else. Once you consume the code you can't use it for someone else.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby lythac » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:57 am

The article isn't relevant to the discussion; the quote is and amused me.

Valve boss Gabe Newell calls Windows 8 a 'catastrophe' wrote:One harbinger of this future was perhaps found, he said, in the success of one Team Fortress player in Kansas who was earning $150,000 (£97,000) a year making virtual hats.

I recall someone on Maintankadin making hats, wonder if they were for personal or business use.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:10 am

Flex wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:If I buy a pet from the Blizzard store... what are the rules on that one?


You purchased a code that grants you it. I look at it like food. Once you eat the food you can't give it to someone else. Once you consume the code you can't use it for someone else.


Hmm... that would certainly apply for things that get "used", which applies to pets and mounts and stuff, but not gear. Further nuances indeed...
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:12 am

lythac wrote:The article isn't relevant to the discussion; the quote is and amused me.

Valve boss Gabe Newell calls Windows 8 a 'catastrophe' wrote:One harbinger of this future was perhaps found, he said, in the success of one Team Fortress player in Kansas who was earning $150,000 (£97,000) a year making virtual hats.

I recall someone on Maintankadin making hats, wonder if they were for personal or business use.


There were people making livings in Second Life as well.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:09 pm

Slight necro, but recently read this article and felt it somewhat touches on this issue.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/03/tech/web/ ... index.html

In simplified terms, they state that when we buy music from iTunes, we are paying for the license to listen to songs via our iPhone, iPod or other Apple device. But we are not buying the music itself.


"When you buy a book, you own the copy of that book but not the actual material," Jonathan Handel, a Los Angeles-based entertainment attorney who specializes in digital media and intellectual property, told CNN last year. "What you are buying here is right to use music on certain devices."
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:37 am

Skye1013 wrote:Slight necro, but recently read this article and felt it somewhat touches on this issue.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/03/tech/web/ ... index.html

In simplified terms, they state that when we buy music from iTunes, we are paying for the license to listen to songs via our iPhone, iPod or other Apple device. But we are not buying the music itself.


"When you buy a book, you own the copy of that book but not the actual material," Jonathan Handel, a Los Angeles-based entertainment attorney who specializes in digital media and intellectual property, told CNN last year. "What you are buying here is right to use music on certain devices."


Which is no different than when you buy a CD. You buy the rights/license, to privately listen to the contents of the CD. You don't buy the music. It isn't yours. Technically though, What is quoted is wrong. You are still purchasing the rights to privately listen to the music, which is why Itunes (the program) has an option to Burn CD's.

This is the problem that Napster created way back in the day. When you purchase a CD, you aren't purchasing the right to do whatever you want with the contents. You purchased the rights to privately enjoy its contents. It's the reasons that bars that have jukeboxes pay money to BMI or ASCAP or another similar agency. They have to pay for the right to publicly use the music in a venture that makes them money. If you are found to have a jukebox or live "Cover" bands, and you don't pay one of those agencies, you can find yourself in a bit of hot water.

This is also why the cost of playing songs on a jukebox has increased.
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