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Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the EU

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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Teranoid » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:36 pm

Well I'm not saying people in specific but it was nowhere near the uproar people have started over the BMAH when in reality it's actually BETTER than guilds selling it because that money is being taken out of the game rather than just being shuffled to someone else.

I just can't help but look at all the complaining as "It's not fair because I don't have as much gold as other people."
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:10 pm

Teranoid wrote:Well I'm not saying people in specific but it was nowhere near the uproar people have started over the BMAH when in reality it's actually BETTER than guilds selling it because that money is being taken out of the game rather than just being shuffled to someone else.

I just can't help but look at all the complaining as "It's not fair because I don't have as much gold as other people."


I can see that point of view. (the not fair about gold thing) When I left the game, I was down to ~20k or so, but my half full GB was probably going to pull in.... ~75-100k in Panda opening (which reminds me... BL better cash in).

For me, offering things on the BMAH that were skill rewards at one time, or removed from the game like T3, is just not a good idea. I understand that people like it, but in the end, I feel it hurts the culture of the game. Not that it should surprise me, I feel like a lot of big additions have hurt it.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:58 pm

Shoju wrote:
Teranoid wrote:Well I'm not saying people in specific but it was nowhere near the uproar people have started over the BMAH when in reality it's actually BETTER than guilds selling it because that money is being taken out of the game rather than just being shuffled to someone else.

I just can't help but look at all the complaining as "It's not fair because I don't have as much gold as other people."


I can see that point of view. (the not fair about gold thing) When I left the game, I was down to ~20k or so, but my half full GB was probably going to pull in.... ~75-100k in Panda opening (which reminds me... BL better cash in).

For me, offering things on the BMAH that were skill rewards at one time, or removed from the game like T3, is just not a good idea. I understand that people like it, but in the end, I feel it hurts the culture of the game. Not that it should surprise me, I feel like a lot of big additions have hurt it.


But it's OK for guilds to sell them?
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Darielle » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:57 pm

Guilds selling them also ruins the prestige. Handmaiden is far less special than Mimi's specifically because there are dozens being sold every week. I think it's up to 12% of the raiding tracked by WoWprogress having Heroic Madness down now, that also makes it less special.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:52 am

halabar wrote:
Shoju wrote:
Teranoid wrote:Well I'm not saying people in specific but it was nowhere near the uproar people have started over the BMAH when in reality it's actually BETTER than guilds selling it because that money is being taken out of the game rather than just being shuffled to someone else.

I just can't help but look at all the complaining as "It's not fair because I don't have as much gold as other people."


I can see that point of view. (the not fair about gold thing) When I left the game, I was down to ~20k or so, but my half full GB was probably going to pull in.... ~75-100k in Panda opening (which reminds me... BL better cash in).

For me, offering things on the BMAH that were skill rewards at one time, or removed from the game like T3, is just not a good idea. I understand that people like it, but in the end, I feel it hurts the culture of the game. Not that it should surprise me, I feel like a lot of big additions have hurt it.


But it's OK for guilds to sell them?


Didn't I just say I didn't like that either?


Oh Right. I DID


Shoju wrote:I cared then, I cared in BC when people were selling bears. I don't like the practice and would never do it.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby degre » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:10 am

halabar wrote:And back to the whole point of this thread...

The key issue that really needs to be resolved by various governing bodies is: What defines "ownership" in a virtual world, if anything can be owned at all, and what are the requirements to maintain ownership, and how does that occur when a vendor controls the virtual world.

Shoju's clearly in the camp of there is no ownership at all, and that the developer of the world owns everything (and if I was a software developer I'd probably agree). But I think we are going to get to the point in virtual places (and in social media) that the issue needs to be addressed, and the rights or lack thereof can't simply be buried in a TOS/EULA.

We won't be able to address account selling under that underlying issue is resolved.

I guess here we're making a mess by mixing up account with actual games.

What has been ruled is that when you buy a piece of code it's yours, hence if you want you can resell the digital copy on the principle that you could have done the same if you bought a physical disc, it is your copy, you have the rights to own that copy of that licensed game, it's yours.

When talking about accounts is way different, you never owned anything, I think I've seen it explained already somewhere, but to make a point, you are 'renting' a login with very specific rules (TOS/EULA) and those rules say that your lease doesn't allow you to be passed to someone else.


Shoju wrote:I don't play games so that I can pay my way to the top, or exploit something to beat it. I play games for the challenge. Not because I want to brag to someone else and say "LOOK AT ALL THIS HARD WORK!" But because I don't personally feel the sense of satisfaction in playing a game with things that I didn't feel like I earned.

If, as you say, you play games for the challenge and only for that, for the personal satisfaction of having earned something, how does it change to your personal feeling if other people obtain it in a different way? You know, people are different, the fact that you love a challenge doesn't mean that everyone is playing this game for the same reason, people have different motives.

If you truly played only for the personal satisfaction of completing a challenge you wouldn't care how other obtained the same coloured pixels you've been given, because you would be satisfied with your own challenge.

Since, on the other hand, you are very sensitive and polemic about others obtaining the same coloured pixels, it appears that contrary to what you claim, you actually care a lot about others and about showing your different coloured pixels that make you stand out as different and/or better.

For how much you can claim that you don't care, all your words point very much in the direction that you DO care, and a lot, you are just lying to yourself.

Mind that I am more sympathetic towards your point and I somehow share the idea, however, we have to consider that the vast majority of users play for different reasons, if their buying a mount gives me new raiding content, hell yeah, sell the whole stable!
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:40 am

degre wrote:When talking about accounts is way different, you never owned anything, I think I've seen it explained already somewhere, but to make a point, you are 'renting' a login with very specific rules (TOS/EULA) and those rules say that your lease doesn't allow you to be passed to someone else.


Agreed, under the current laws (or lack thereof). My point in all of this though, is that there need to be a broader discussion regarding "ownership" in regards to virtual goods, and that Blizz (and other developers) have opened the door on this by selling items for real currency.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:28 am

halabar wrote:
degre wrote:When talking about accounts is way different, you never owned anything, I think I've seen it explained already somewhere, but to make a point, you are 'renting' a login with very specific rules (TOS/EULA) and those rules say that your lease doesn't allow you to be passed to someone else.


Agreed, under the current laws (or lack thereof). My point in all of this though, is that there need to be a broader discussion regarding "ownership" in regards to virtual goods, and that Blizz (and other developers) have opened the door on this by selling items for real currency.


Since the TOS/EULA language pretty explicitly states that you don't own the account, you don't own the pixels, you don't own any of it, this is the part that I'm having a hard time with.

They sold you the right to play with, or be accompanied by, or carried by, a different set of pixels, because you paid more money. They didn't sell you a piece of merchandise. If it were merchandise, and you could own it, you could then, theoretically, remove it from their servers.

But you can't. So you don't own it.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:43 pm

Shoju wrote:
halabar wrote:
degre wrote:When talking about accounts is way different, you never owned anything, I think I've seen it explained already somewhere, but to make a point, you are 'renting' a login with very specific rules (TOS/EULA) and those rules say that your lease doesn't allow you to be passed to someone else.


Agreed, under the current laws (or lack thereof). My point in all of this though, is that there need to be a broader discussion regarding "ownership" in regards to virtual goods, and that Blizz (and other developers) have opened the door on this by selling items for real currency.


Since the TOS/EULA language pretty explicitly states that you don't own the account, you don't own the pixels, you don't own any of it, this is the part that I'm having a hard time with.

They sold you the right to play with, or be accompanied by, or carried by, a different set of pixels, because you paid more money. They didn't sell you a piece of merchandise. If it were merchandise, and you could own it, you could then, theoretically, remove it from their servers.

But you can't. So you don't own it.


Shoju, I agree with you, under the current laws.

But what if it was classified as merchandise? (Hell, I believe I am getting charged sales tax on it. If it's not merchandise, than why am I paying a sales tax?)

Think civil rights movement. I want to reconsider the laws. Liberty for virtual goods!!!
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:13 pm

In some states you don't pay sales tax for food. In some states you don't pay state income tax. In some states, you get taxed for buying virtual pixels in a video game.

I don't want them to reconsider the laws. I want them to say: "No. It's part of the game. You agreed to the contract" and move on.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:33 pm

Shoju wrote:In some states you don't pay sales tax for food. In some states you don't pay state income tax. In some states, you get taxed for buying virtual pixels in a video game.

I don't want them to reconsider the laws. I want them to say: "No. It's part of the game. You agreed to the contract" and move on.


I'm being repressed!!!! (insert appropriate monty python video link here...) :D
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:46 pm

If I buy a pet from the Blizzard store... what are the rules on that one? I just purchased it (which should mean I own it, yes?) However I have no possible way to sell it to someone else once I've attached it to my account, since it is bound to the account. If it's for some reason different, then I suppose I don't really own the plushie that came with the Windrider Cub either.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:00 pm

Skye1013 wrote:If I buy a pet from the Blizzard store... what are the rules on that one? I just purchased it (which should mean I own it, yes?) However I have no possible way to sell it to someone else once I've attached it to my account, since it is bound to the account. If it's for some reason different, then I suppose I don't really own the plushie that came with the Windrider Cub either.


You certainly don't own the pixels, nor the database record that marks that they are bound to your account, nor the design, nor the programming animation.

I do think you should have to right to transfer it to another player. Shoju would disagree.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:42 pm

halabar wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:If I buy a pet from the Blizzard store... what are the rules on that one? I just purchased it (which should mean I own it, yes?) However I have no possible way to sell it to someone else once I've attached it to my account, since it is bound to the account. If it's for some reason different, then I suppose I don't really own the plushie that came with the Windrider Cub either.


You certainly don't own the pixels, nor the database record that marks that they are bound to your account, nor the design, nor the programming animation.

I do think you should have to right to transfer it to another player. Shoju would disagree.


You paid 25 bucks for a stuffed animal, and the people who run the game were nice and unlocked a line of code for you.

Congrats on purchasing something, instead of the other transactions, where you purhcased.... nothing.

Buy it for real money, and make gold in the game.... Eh... no, not really my choice for a business model / idea / principle.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby degre » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:51 pm

halabar wrote:
degre wrote:When talking about accounts is way different, you never owned anything, I think I've seen it explained already somewhere, but to make a point, you are 'renting' a login with very specific rules (TOS/EULA) and those rules say that your lease doesn't allow you to be passed to someone else.


Agreed, under the current laws (or lack thereof). My point in all of this though, is that there need to be a broader discussion regarding "ownership" in regards to virtual goods, and that Blizz (and other developers) have opened the door on this by selling items for real currency.

Well, items for currency have now been sold for ages, the point is still that whatever you pay for is linked to the account that you are given to use, you aren't strictly buying anything, it's more like you are paying to unlock certain benefits.
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