Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the EU

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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:36 am

KysenMurrin wrote:I just don't see such a big distinction between paying to enjoy a video game that only exists digitally, and paying to enjoy extras within that video game. (Whether it's actually worth the money is another matter.)


Actually, a really interesting comparison would be what I get from WoW for $15/month, and what I get from a F2P spending $15/month on extras. If Panda gets pushed back till December or something, I might experiment for a month.

Regarding the worth, it comes down to entertainment. When you can pay $15 to see a single 90min movie, how does that compare to $15 of increases for a video game?
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Teranoid » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:19 am

Who gives half a shit about if some idiot is stupid enough to waste real money on a game? People act like getting anything in WoW takes any actual effort to begin with and makes it out like selling pets and mounts is so fucking terrible that I'm shocked someone isn't equating it to terrorism or some equally ridiculous shit.

Also I've got news for you Shoju.. game companies have been doing this shit for years. It's called DLC. But hey it's just another thread on these forums where people are so fucking stuck with the idea that their opinion is the right one and the only one that matters so why am I surprised?
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Fivelives » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:03 pm

Shoju, you're still flailing away blindly in the exact opposite direction of the point.

We're not talking about the sale of in-game virtual items for real money, aka microtransactions or DLC.

We're talking about the sale of the game itself. I mention "selling accounts" because it seemed to me to be an eminently reasonable position to take, considering that your wow account basically IS the entire game.

I still say it seems to me like you're vastly overvaluing your time and/or it pisses you off that there are people out there that have more money than you do.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Flex » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:10 pm

to be fair people have been arguing both points in this thread.

Also this thread got stupid when that started happening.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:54 pm

I dunno, I thought the thread got stupid when people started taking "moral" stances on the sale of virtual goods, as if there was some inherent morality that forbade such transactions. I get not liking it, or not wanting to participate in it. But suggesting that nobody should do it at all because it's somehow morally objectionable is sort of silly and arbitrary.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:40 pm

I think this was mentioned previously, but if you want to sell your digital copy of the game (aka account key) it shouldn't come with the account attached. Someone should be able to purchase it, then set up their own new account (which would then disable yours, or require you to disable yours for them to finalize theirs, to prevent key thefts.) I mean, if you're selling a cd copy of the game, you don't give them all of your save files, do you?
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Teranoid » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:42 pm

theckhd wrote:I dunno, I thought the thread got stupid when people started taking "moral" stances on the sale of virtual goods, as if there was some inherent morality that forbade such transactions. I get not liking it, or not wanting to participate in it. But suggesting that nobody should do it at all because it's somehow morally objectionable is sort of silly and arbitrary.


What do you expect when this is the same forum that equated the LFR gear exploits to accusing people of being bad parents?
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:50 pm

And yet... it's still infinitely better than the official forums or MMO-C...
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:15 am

theckhd wrote:I dunno, I thought the thread got stupid when people started taking "moral" stances on the sale of virtual goods, as if there was some inherent morality that forbade such transactions. I get not liking it, or not wanting to participate in it. But suggesting that nobody should do it at all because it's somehow morally objectionable is sort of silly and arbitrary.


I apologize if mine came off as a moral stance.

I don't like it. I don't participate in it. I find it to be utterly ridiculous and pointless. I bought the game. I paid the subscription. Personally, to me, that should be it.

I don't see how I'm "flailing away" in the opposite direction. I simply stated that I don't like EITHER side of it. I don't care who the money goes to.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Fivelives » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:57 am

Skye1013 wrote:I think this was mentioned previously, but if you want to sell your digital copy of the game (aka account key) it shouldn't come with the account attached. Someone should be able to purchase it, then set up their own new account (which would then disable yours, or require you to disable yours for them to finalize theirs, to prevent key thefts.) I mean, if you're selling a cd copy of the game, you don't give them all of your save files, do you?


A game isn't sold with the save files, but when you open things up to the market and competition sets in, I'd expect that would be changed in a hurry. If I could get a better used price at a retailer for including my save files, I'd be buying flash drives in bulk. Digital media just makes that easier and cheaper. I couldn't see it for games like Uncharted, or anything else that linear, but for a game like Mass Effect? There's already a pretty thriving community of free game save offerings - give people a chance to make money off of those and I imagine they'd take it in a heartbeat.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:09 pm

Maybe the big problem I have with the idea of selling save data, game accounts, and the like, is that it doesn't feel earned. I would personally have a problem with buying an account, or gold, or save files, or even stuff that the company is selling itself because I didn't earn it.

That sort of kills it for me. There is no enjoyment there for me. It's the same feeling that drives my opinions on other things.

My distaste for a random shared loot table on bosses. It feels like a total slot machine instead of working, and killing, and patience.
The fact that Gladiator mounts are on the restricted to character only driving me crazy.
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My hard line stance on the LFR "exploit" bannings.

I don't play games so that I can pay my way to the top, or exploit something to beat it. I play games for the challenge. Not because I want to brag to someone else and say "LOOK AT ALL THIS HARD WORK!" But because I don't personally feel the sense of satisfaction in playing a game with things that I didn't feel like I earned.

That's probably why I'm anti progressive nerfs as well. I want something to be hard. I don't want to beat it months after someone else when it was made easier, so that I can feel good about it. I want to beat it, and feel like I finally accomplished the hard task. Method, Ensidia, and those guys get it done, because they are better at the game than myself, and my raiding group. I'm ok with that. I was never mad at guilds in TBC who were further ahead in progression than we were. I was never comparing my guild to theirs. I was just trying to beat the content. For myself.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:50 pm

Shoju wrote:Not because I want to brag to someone else and say "LOOK AT ALL THIS HARD WORK!" But because I don't personally feel the sense of satisfaction in playing a game with things that I didn't feel like I earned.


And that's fine, and commendable. But for many, the games are simply pay-for-entertainment. You are trying to lump paying for pretty ponies and farmville boosts into the same pile as raid progression, those are very different things.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Gab » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:52 pm

Shoju wrote:Maybe the big problem I have with the idea of selling save data, game accounts, and the like, is that it doesn't feel earned. I would personally have a problem with buying an account, or gold, or save files, or even stuff that the company is selling itself because I didn't earn it.


I don't get the whole has to be earned in game sentiment. Couldn't it "feel earned" in the sense that you earned the money that you spent to buy that kill, mount, loot, save file etc...?

Does someone with no obligations that can put in 100 hours worth of WoW every week really deserve something more than someone who does have obligations but can only spend 5 hours a week playing and buys some of things that he/she wouldn't be able to obtain in that meager amount of game time?

Person A can spend a rediculous amount of time playing person B can spend some money they both get stuff. What is the big deal?
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Teranoid » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:10 pm

The biggest flaw in that argument about feeling like you earned something is the implication that anyone around you cares what you have. If you play this game to get noticed or some equally ridiculous notion you're playing the wrong game. How is being able to buy something any worse than "well here go do this mindlessly easy raid for basically the same thing"? More importantly how does that even begin to affect your enjoyment of the game?

Hint: It doesn't. You can make every justification to yourself that it does but it doesn't. Johnny who paid 25 bucks for his sparkle pony does NOTHING to affect your enjoyment of the game and if it does you really have some issues that require professional assistance. "Bbbbut it sets a precedent!" For what? People to be able to buy more pets and mounts? Far be it from a BUSINESS to attempt to make money! For shame!

I'm amazed you're even in this argument considering you don't even play and have went out of your way many times to tell us how you're not playing anymore. I mean seriously what is the point of getting pissed off over a game you obviously have no interest in? It's basically bitching for the sole reason of having something to complain about.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:29 pm

halabar wrote:And that's fine, and commendable. But for many, the games are simply pay-for-entertainment. You are trying to lump paying for pretty ponies and farmville boosts into the same pile as raid progression, those are very different things.


For me, they aren't. It is still paying for something that isn't earned, which just isn't going to compel me to play. It's probably the biggest reason I never jumped ship to another MMO.

Gab wrote:I don't get the whole has to be earned in game sentiment. Couldn't it "feel earned" in the sense that you earned the money that you spent to buy that kill, mount, loot, save file etc...?


Then what is the point in playing the game if I'm just going to pay money to skip over stuff, or not have to do it? Why bother picking up a game that isn't Quake, or Doom, or some platform game that doesn't have a leveling process?

Does someone with no obligations that can put in 100 hours worth of WoW every week really deserve something more than someone who does have obligations but can only spend 5 hours a week playing and buys some of things that he/she wouldn't be able to obtain in that meager amount of game time?

Person A can spend a rediculous amount of time playing person B can spend some money they both get stuff. What is the big deal?


That's not a terrible accurate analogy, because the response to that is two fold. Either

a.) Person b will end up with it, just not as fast
OR
b.) If only person A with that much time can get it, it shouldn't be in the game as designed. Grind Fests aren't rewarding.



Teranoid wrote:The biggest flaw in that argument about feeling like you earned something is the implication that anyone around you cares what you have. If you play this game to get noticed or some equally ridiculous notion you're playing the wrong game.


At least try to read my post completely. Seriously.

Shoju wrote:I don't play games so that I can pay my way to the top, or exploit something to beat it. I play games for the challenge. Not because I want to brag to someone else and say "LOOK AT ALL THIS HARD WORK!" But because I don't personally feel the sense of satisfaction in playing a game with things that I didn't feel like I earned.


How is being able to buy something any worse than "well here go do this mindlessly easy raid for basically the same thing"? More importantly how does that even begin to affect your enjoyment of the game?

Hint: It doesn't. You can make every justification to yourself that it does but it doesn't. Johnny who paid 25 bucks for his sparkle pony does NOTHING to affect your enjoyment of the game and if it does you really have some issues that require professional assistance. "Bbbbut it sets a precedent!" For what? People to be able to buy more pets and mounts? Far be it from a BUSINESS to attempt to make money! For shame!


Them buying it does nothing to impact my gameplay experience, and if you think that I've said it somewhere, Please, point it out to me, because you have OBVIOUSLY misunderstood something.

I figured it up, I paid around 1000 bucks to Blizz for my time in WoW. Copies of the game, the expacs, and my Subscription. Personally, I just feel like stuff should be included in that price, or not put into the game. I don't like the business model.

I'm amazed you're even in this argument considering you don't even play and have went out of your way many times to tell us how you're not playing anymore. I mean seriously what is the point of getting pissed off over a game you obviously have no interest in? It's basically bitching for the sole reason of having something to complain about.


And I'm amazed that you haven't just put me on ignore yet, since every time I engage in a discussion where my opinion differs from someone elses you feel the need to come in and be a dick, and attempt to twist my opinion so that you can bash me? Ignore me and move on if I'm such a problem for you. Or don't, I don't care.

This has more implications than just WoW. If WoW sets the precedent (speaking strictly selling accounts at this point), it will move over into other sources of games that I still actually am a part of.

If that is the way you feel, then why are any of us posting any threads that have anything to do with anything but theorycraft, or game mechanics here? What is the point of having a frustrations thread? What is the point of having anything other than a giant "we love blizzard and every decision they make is the best thing ever" forum?
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:51 pm

Shoju wrote:
halabar wrote:And that's fine, and commendable. But for many, the games are simply pay-for-entertainment. You are trying to lump paying for pretty ponies and farmville boosts into the same pile as raid progression, those are very different things.


For me, they aren't. It is still paying for something that isn't earned, which just isn't going to compel me to play. It's probably the biggest reason I never jumped ship to another MMO.

This has more implications than just WoW. If WoW sets the precedent (speaking strictly selling accounts at this point), it will move over into other sources of games that I still actually am a part of.


Well, let's look at a different gaming platform.. Facebook. Two basic models, Mafiawars, where you can buy skillups and are directly competing with other players, and Farmville, where you can buy powerups, but are not competing.

I can see your point in the case of Mafiawars, since you are up against people that may have paid for boosts. However, getting a small percentage of players to play is the business model (other than ad-clicks).

For Farmville, or say solo-RPG, you aren't competing against anyone. In that case, I see money spent there exactly the same as going to the movies. It's pure entertainment spending.

Back to the gym scenario, it seems like you would be upset with the guy that hired a personal trainer, and got results 2x faster than you, and didn't "earn" it. :wink:

But to your concern, Blizz will fight this tooth and nail. It's much more likely that Blizz will be the last holdout, and some other MMO will go there first in order to entice players to join.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Fivelives » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:53 pm

It's not even all that different.

If WoW was a game that primarily rewarded skill over time invested, then you would have a solid point. Unfortunately, that's not the model of WoW. It's not the model of any MMO. You put in the time, you get the rewards - that's why it's called "grinding".

You bring up the point that you've paid around $1000 to Blizzard in subscriptions, expansions, etc. So in essence, you've bought your account for $1000, just spread out over a pretty long period of time. What's the difference between you paying $1000 for your account, and someone else paying $100 for theirs? The time invested? That's a non-starter.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Darielle » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:18 pm

If WoW was a game that primarily rewarded skill over time invested, then you would have a solid point. Unfortunately, that's not the model of WoW. It's not the model of any MMO. You put in the time, you get the rewards - that's why it's called "grinding".


WoW does primarily reward* skill over time invested.

*As long as you define reward the way I define reward ... and the way I define reward (such as having Mimi's Head and other titles/mounts/experience people can no longer reliably obtain) is what does make my account more valuable if I were to sell it.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby lythac » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:44 am

Shoju wrote:Maybe the big problem I have with the idea of selling save data, game accounts, and the like, is that it doesn't feel earned. I would personally have a problem with buying an account, or gold, or save files, or even stuff that the company is selling itself because I didn't earn it.


How did you feel about the scroll of resurrection players getting a level 80 char in 232 gear? They definitely did not earn the character but the main point was so they could play with the resurrecter.

I am against selling of accounts with progression on them. The key is fine, but honestly there was a promotion not too long ago where you could get the game including Cata for $30/€30/£24 so seems pointless.

Pets/mounts etc don't bother me - if you're on your sparkle pony it makes my mount more unique and you just look dumb.

Buying of premade level 80 chars from Blizzard I would do; I don't have the time to invest in leveling an alt. There is no skill in leveling and I would not get a sense of accomplishment or felt I earned the character so buying one legitimately from Blizzard sits fine with me. And I would not class it as a waste of my money like I would a mount.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:04 am

halabar wrote:Well, let's look at a different gaming platform.. Facebook. Two basic models, Mafiawars, where you can buy skillups and are directly competing with other players, and Farmville, where you can buy powerups, but are not competing.

There are other facebook game models out there, I happen to be a developer for one of the "Other" models, in which there is absolutely no way to pay for anything. Is the game as big as Farmville or MafiaWars? No. Am I ok with that? Yes. Even if the company that owns the IP for it were somehow interested in doing a Pay for Play venture on Facebook, I wouldn't be. That just doesn't lead to compelling gameplay.

I can see your point in the case of Mafiawars, since you are up against people that may have paid for boosts. However, getting a small percentage of players to play is the business model (other than ad-clicks).


And I'm saying that I don't like this business model. Nothing more.

For Farmville, or say solo-RPG, you aren't competing against anyone. In that case, I see money spent there exactly the same as going to the movies. It's pure entertainment spending.


Possibly. But it's still a business model that I don't care for. I prefer the model where it is paid for up front, you know what you're buying. You know that you've paid for it, and that you aren't missing something later on, because you didn't purchase more than the base. Now, admittedly, that doesn't work for free games. I see that, I understand that.

Back to the gym scenario, it seems like you would be upset with the guy that hired a personal trainer, and got results 2x faster than you, and didn't "earn" it. :wink:


Not even close. It's more like. You bought a gym membership, and then went and had Lypo surgery, and credit the gym for losing that weight.

But to your concern, Blizz will fight this tooth and nail. It's much more likely that Blizz will be the last holdout, and some other MMO will go there first in order to entice players to join.


I hope they do fight it tooth and nail. I personally find this business model as a giant trap. It's a similar problem to what console companies are facing now with the used game market. I have a hard time figuring out where I am on that fence. At first I was outraged. I bought the game. I should be able to sell the game. But I also see how that could potentially hurt the development of future entertainment. It's a sticky situation.

lythac wrote:How did you feel about the scroll of resurrection players getting a level 80 char in 232 gear? They definitely did not earn the character but the main point was so they could play with the resurrecter.


I hate it. I understand why they did it, but that was just a terrible idea IMO.

I am against selling of accounts with progression on them. The key is fine, but honestly there was a promotion not too long ago where you could get the game including Cata for $30/€30/£24 so seems pointless.


You can already sell the game keys. Selling accounts with progression on them, is just a really bad deal. While I don't like the business model of micro transactions (sparkly ponies, dragons, and pets in WoW) I know that I'm going to have to live with it. I'm not going to like it, but I'm going to have to live with micro transactions.

But I feel that moving past that, and opening it up to where game accounts are somehow "property" is just a really bad idea. Like I said before, how do you value it? How do you get it from being a problem? How do you avoid it becoming a "job"? There is more in play here from a legal stand point than what people are giving notice to.

Buying of premade level 80 chars from Blizzard I would do; I don't have the time to invest in leveling an alt. There is no skill in leveling and I would not get a sense of accomplishment or felt I earned the character so buying one legitimately from Blizzard sits fine with me. And I would not class it as a waste of my money like I would a mount.


And for me, there would always be the "BUt I didn't do it myself" attached to it, skill or no skill.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:03 am

Shoju wrote:
Buying of premade level 80 chars from Blizzard I would do; I don't have the time to invest in leveling an alt. There is no skill in leveling and I would not get a sense of accomplishment or felt I earned the character so buying one legitimately from Blizzard sits fine with me. And I would not class it as a waste of my money like I would a mount.


And for me, there would always be the "BUt I didn't do it myself" attached to it, skill or no skill.


Meh, when there's no skill to it, there's really nothing but a grind. I would be all in favor of premades. It would likely get people trying classes they would otherwise never play, due the the leveling grind. BUT... that should only be available on accounts with at least 2 or 3 85s (or 90s) leveled the normal way.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Fivelives » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:30 pm

Darielle wrote:WoW does primarily reward* skill over time invested.

*As long as you define reward the way I define reward ... and the way I define reward (such as having Mimi's Head and other titles/mounts/experience people can no longer reliably obtain) is what does make my account more valuable if I were to sell it.


Not really. It's like grinding for Thunderfury or Sulfuron back when MC was Relevant Content. It's even less so now because you can get current content gear without setting foot in current content - and gear has always been the primary barrier to progression.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Darielle » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:01 am

Not really. It's like grinding for Thunderfury or Sulfuron back when MC was Relevant Content. It's even less so now because you can get current content gear without setting foot in current content - and gear has always been the primary barrier to progression.


It's nothing like those though. Having Mimi's Head, Invincible, Algalon FoS etc., are all things people can't reliably obtain or are impossible to obtain. Having stuff like the Sinestra no-death achieve fall on the same scale for this expansion; if Blizzard continues the trend and will make that a FoS or will make it unobtainable by people at 90, or make Handmaidens a 1% drop like they did Mimi's Head, etc. They're rewards for skill - the gear is just what everyone has.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Fivelives » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:42 am

Random drops don't reward skill, they reward time invested. If Mimi's head etc were a reward for skill, it would be a guaranteed drop to everyone in the raid for a server/world first or something similar, not a random object on the loot table.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Darielle » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:13 am

You're aware that Mimiron's Head was a guaranteed drop for Alone in the Darkness before Cataclysm hit, right? And Invincible was a guaranteed drop for Light of Dawn. Crusader's pony thing was also a guaranteed for Tribute to Immortality.

The fact that people now either can't possibly or can't realistically obtain them is what makes the ones that people DO have valuable - and 98% of the ones that do have them obtained them as a reward for skill in facing those fights and winning.
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