Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the EU

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Teranoid » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:24 pm

Accounts, at least from what I've noticed over the past year or so, are next to worthless unless you've got a boatload of achievements,mounts,pvp stuff. I mean unless you want like 60 bucks for 7 years worth of time invested or want to take your chances on those sites that scam you.
User avatar
Teranoid
 
Posts: 2156
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:56 pm

Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Fetzie » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:10 am

I'd rather not sell at all than value my account at under 1000 dollars.
Fetzie | Protection Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2198
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:25 am

And that's really the thing.

How would I value my account? It's probably a ~100 bucks on that market after the B.net Achieve/mount merger.

115 mounts
100+ pets
~10k achievements,
Feats of Strength for two legendaries that aren't "That hard" to get.
Feats of Strength for things that you can't do anymore (reps, mounts that aren't in game anymore)

Personally, if I were even to entertain an offer, I would be in the $1500 range more so than the $100 range.

And that's just not realistic.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 6358
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:10 pm

My thoughts on this:

Paying subscriptions for your account would be the equivalent to paying for a gym membership. With that gym membership, you aren't allowed to sell off the equipment that you're using, or sell the membership to another person (at least not as far as I'm aware.) So why would it be okay to sell your WoW account/characters?
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3941
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:11 pm

Skye1013 wrote:My thoughts on this:

Paying subscriptions for your account would be the equivalent to paying for a gym membership. With that gym membership, you aren't allowed to sell off the equipment that you're using, or sell the membership to another person (at least not as far as I'm aware.) So why would it be okay to sell your WoW account/characters?


Not the same. What you are suggesting would be the same as claiming ownership on a part of the servers.

There are three parts here, and each has it's own legality in selling.

1) Goods that can be transferred between players (gold, gear commodities) - these likely will become sellable at some point, as with D3.

2) Goods that are bound to the character/account - a little more iffy here. Easy for Blizz to say these can't be transferred.

3) Characters - much easier for Blizz to say these can't be transferred.

However, if the EU lawmakers push it, all this may change. I suspect we'll see #1 first.

Ironic that this is happening at the same time that Asian lawmakers are trying to ban the sale of virtual goods in one way or another.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:15 pm

Well the gym membership is a decent analogy, though you lost me when you moved to the gym equipment. I guess the wow equivalent would be selling their servers? That's kind of silly.

All you are selling is your access in either case. Admittedly, selling a gym membership is probably a little odd unless you had some great membership package that isn't available anymore or something. Otherwise, someone would just get their own membership and have the exact same experience without the headaches of a transfer.

Wow is the same thing, you are simply selling your access to the game. However with wow, the characters used to access the game make a difference. That said, both of those are almost certainly legal, but neither have to be allowed by the vendor. If they catch you they can cancel the membership. Some gyms do allow transfers of memberships, some don't. Blizzard has said that they don't allow account selling, but I think some games do.

The legality of it isn't really in question, you aren't going to go to jail or fined for selling it, but that doesn't mean the vendor has to honor it.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9667
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:26 pm

I was equating gym equipment to characters/items, but perhaps that part of the analogy falls through. And I wasn't questioning the legality, so much as Blizzard's "right" to disallow it.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3941
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Fivelives » Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:14 am

I imagine Blizz will get around it by the forum selection clause in the EULA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forum_selection_clause

So unless the same thing happens in the US, it'll probably be a moot point.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3108
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:26 am

Selling accounts is pretty close to a gym membership in the new fitness shops opening around here. If you are part of the wave, you get special "lifetime" benefits based on the wave, even with a break in services. Most of them have 3-4 "waves" of membership periods when they open up.

The first wave (the intro wave) gets the best membership package, at the cheapest rate available, (bottom tier price) forever.
The second wave (2-3 months after they opened) got a discounted rate as well, but it's "one tier up"
The Third Wave (6+ months, when membership and use is dwindling) get ~10% off

And so on and so forth, until the gym runs out of members, closes, and sells off its equipment to the next guy.

This type of membership tier is pretty easy to analogize to WoW, and these companies have a specific "no you can't sell your membership" type thing, just like Blizz has a "No you can't sell your account" type thing.

What is the point of selling the account really? I guess I just don't see how a few bucks is going to be worth it.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 6358
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:30 am

No different than anything else really, a few dollars for something you'll never use is certainly worth it logically. I get that there might be a sentimental value, but that's not something that everyone will have in the same way. So for some even a few dollars is worth it.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9667
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:43 am

For me, even without the sentiment, I just don't see the point of selling it. I will admit that I'm probably the minority in the thought, but selling accounts to me is pretty similar to buying gold.

sure buying gold comes from compromised accounts, and farmers, and general bad things, but I'm definitely in the camp of people who think that paying real money for pixels is not something I want to support. Even in a round about way like selling an account.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 6358
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:34 am

Shoju wrote:... but I'm definitely in the camp of people who think that paying real money for pixels is not something I want to support. Even in a round about way like selling an account.


So you're against the RMAH in D3?.. because those are pixels (and bits in a database) for real money, and along with that, any F2P MMO upgrades?

The crux of the argument really should be around, does the time/effort invested in a character constitute any sort of ownership of that character? The gym analogy fails, since you get to take your muscles (or lack thereof) with you. So selling an account is not just selling access.

In a primitive sense, it would be like trying to sell a highscore on a video game.

But Blizz has opened the door already selling pets/mounts, and by creating the D3 RMAH. So characters are next.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:05 am

halabar wrote:
Shoju wrote:... but I'm definitely in the camp of people who think that paying real money for pixels is not something I want to support. Even in a round about way like selling an account.


So you're against the RMAH in D3?..


Yes.

any F2P MMO upgrades?

Also, not a fan.

The crux of the argument really should be around, does the time/effort invested in a character constitute any sort of ownership of that character? The gym analogy fails, since you get to take your muscles (or lack thereof) with you. So selling an account is not just selling access.

In a primitive sense, it would be like trying to sell a highscore on a video game.

But Blizz has opened the door already selling pets/mounts, and by creating the D3 RMAH. So characters are next.


And you can take your brain with you, but you can't take the perks that are available only to you at the gym, just like you can't take your characters with you.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 6358
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:16 am

Shoju wrote:
halabar wrote:
Shoju wrote:... but I'm definitely in the camp of people who think that paying real money for pixels is not something I want to support. Even in a round about way like selling an account.


So you're against the RMAH in D3?..


Yes.

any F2P MMO upgrades?

Also, not a fan.

The crux of the argument really should be around, does the time/effort invested in a character constitute any sort of ownership of that character? The gym analogy fails, since you get to take your muscles (or lack thereof) with you. So selling an account is not just selling access.

In a primitive sense, it would be like trying to sell a highscore on a video game.

But Blizz has opened the door already selling pets/mounts, and by creating the D3 RMAH. So characters are next.


And you can take your brain with you, but you can't take the perks that are available only to you at the gym, just like you can't take your characters with you.


Not being a fan is not part of the legal question. :wink:

Considering there are efforts to tax the creation of virtual goods in many countries, and the IRS will want to tax me on my D3 earnings, there's more at stake here than just the "goldsellers" argument. Virtual goods are sold in many other online communities, and Blizz has opened the door.

If Blizz wants to sell me a pony-of-pretty-pixels for $25, the time has come to allow for that to be resold to another player.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9379
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:31 am

I completely disagree.

When you start blurring the lines like this, its a problem.

Pay for a game.
Pay for a subscription.

I don't like the RMAH, and I don't like Micro Transaction based F2P MMO's because then it starts looking more and more like it can be a "career", or a job.

If you can be taxed for online sales and purchases, you should be taxed for things that you do in a video game. If you live in an area where you are required to pay taxes for online purchases and sales, you are already required to pay taxes for your in game RMAH purchases for D3.

Does it mean that everyone will? Hell no.
Does it mean that most will? Not even close
Does it mean that some will? sure.
Does it mean that you should be taxed? I'm not going into politics about it.

The bottom line, is that I don't like it. I'm fine with paying for a game, and paying a subscription, but I'm definitely no ok with micro-transactions, RMAH, Account Selling, or Gold Selling. There is a pretty easy distinction for me. I don't support that.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 6358
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest