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Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Election 2012

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:59 am

Yeah, but they get screwed by the record contract they're locked into when they win. There are often successful runners-up because they get a chance to actually have some control of their career. You wouldn't have that aspect with a presidential candidate thing.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:08 pm

You'd have to have something in the show to make people actually want to watch it though... presidential debates isn't really my idea of a good time. And a lot of the stuff people do on reality tv to make it "interesting" would make the candidate questionable as a good potential president...
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Hokahey » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:30 am

Amirya wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:The more people that "waste" their vote on someone else, the more likely it is that others will see the system is broken, or heck, might even take a chance the next election because the number is growing, and "this year just might be the year..."

For anyone that doesn't even take the time for a write in vote (even if it's a made up person/creature/place/whatever), I don't think they really have much room to complain about the system.

If it helps, while I refuse to vote, I don't complain about it, I just have no faith that it even works.


This.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fivelives » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:41 am

Hokahey wrote:
Amirya wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:The more people that "waste" their vote on someone else, the more likely it is that others will see the system is broken, or heck, might even take a chance the next election because the number is growing, and "this year just might be the year..."

For anyone that doesn't even take the time for a write in vote (even if it's a made up person/creature/place/whatever), I don't think they really have much room to complain about the system.

If it helps, while I refuse to vote, I don't complain about it, I just have no faith that it even works.


This.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxsQ7jJJcEA

George Carlin wrote:I don't vote. Two reasons. First of all it's meaningless; this country was bought and sold a long time ago. The shit they shovel around every 4 years *pfff* doesn't mean a fucking thing.

Secondly, I believe if you vote, you have no right to complain. People like to twist that around – they say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain', but where's the logic in that? If you vote and you elect dishonest, incompetent people into office who screw everything up, you are responsible for what they have done. You caused the problem; you voted them in; you have no right to complain.

I, on the other hand, who did not vote, who in fact did not even leave the house on election day, am in no way responsible for what these people have done and have every right to complain about the mess you created that I had nothing to do with.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:18 am

As much as I love George Carlin's comedy, the logic in that particular quip is pretty poor. It's a comedy routine after all.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:43 am

Yeah, you could argue not voting means you can criticise the people who did vote, but it doesn't hold water for criticising the person who wins.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fivelives » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:27 am

If you think about it, you really don't have a right to complain if you vote. Either

A) you voted in an incompetent boob and thus have no right to complain as it's your fault,

or

B) you voted for "the other guy" - in which case you also have no right to complain, as you played the game and lost fair and square.

But since when has "having a right" mattered when people want to complain, anyway?

George Carlin's logic isn't often at fault. Sure, he relied a lot on hyperbole - as almost all comedians do - but that doesn't mean he wasn't right more often than not.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby theckhd » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:53 pm

Fivelives wrote:If you think about it, you really don't have a right to complain if you vote. Either

A) you voted in an incompetent boob and thus have no right to complain as it's your fault,

or

B) you voted for "the other guy" - in which case you also have no right to complain, as you played the game and lost fair and square.

But since when has "having a right" mattered when people want to complain, anyway?

George Carlin's logic isn't often at fault. Sure, he relied a lot on hyperbole - as almost all comedians do - but that doesn't mean he wasn't right more often than not.


I hate this argument, because it's about the dumbest thing that I've ever heard. One can vote for someone without agreeing with all of their stances, or vote against someone despite agreeing with them on certain points. You can still be pissed off when they do something stupid. They're not mutually exclusive positions. Trying to paint it as such is more of the stupid fatalistic posturing that people use to justify it as "not their problem" when they want to feel smug, smart, and holier-than-thou, while at the same time not being smart enough to see that they're part of the problem.

You want to demonstrate your disillusionment with politics? Take the 15 minutes it takes to go and vote for a third-party candidate, even if they have no chance of winning. If even half of the 40% of voters that decide not to vote showed up and voted for a third party candidate - any third party candidate - it would send a distinct message to the "only" two options. Hell, 40% of all voters is enough to elect a third party candidate.

Sitting on your ass and not voting is the equivalent of re-posting shit on facebook to "show your support." It's the juvenile, idiotic, lazy way to pretend you're involved without having to actually do anything useful or meaningful.

/rant off
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Melathys » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:27 pm

its the people who "protest" by not voting that have put this nation in the mess that its in.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:31 pm

theckhd wrote:I hate this argument, because it's about the dumbest thing that I've ever heard.
That about sums it up.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Arjuna » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:27 am

Well, whoever wins it's very likely that he'll influence my life greatly in one way or another, but I'm in Europe so I don't have any say in it...
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Brekkie » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:40 am

What Theck said. Please vote guys. At least your votes actually get counted at all, unlike my overseas military absentee ballot.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Amirya » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:52 pm

So to make sure I'm understanding this.

I don't vote because I don't have faith in the system. I can't even believe what Brekkie says about my vote being counted (not because he's dishonest, but because that is the amount of faith I have in the system - it's NOT counted). But you're telling me it's better to vote dishonestly, just because everyone else thinks I should - instead of not voting because that's my honest opinion.

If that's what you're saying, then no one will bitch and moan if I ask my resident alien mother to tell me who to vote for, right? Or hell, you guys can tell me who to vote for. It'll amount to the same thing.

Money rules politics these days. I don't have the money to buy any votes or laws. Therefore, my vote is meaningless, because I don't have the wealth to back it up.

Or at least, that's how it's certainly presented these days.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby bldavis » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:31 pm

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thought it was fitting

this is in no way promoting the site i got this from, just a pic i saw on fb and liked
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Koatanga » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:38 pm

Amirya wrote:So to make sure I'm understanding this.

I don't vote because I don't have faith in the system. I can't even believe what Brekkie says about my vote being counted (not because he's dishonest, but because that is the amount of faith I have in the system - it's NOT counted). But you're telling me it's better to vote dishonestly, just because everyone else thinks I should - instead of not voting because that's my honest opinion.

If that's what you're saying, then no one will bitch and moan if I ask my resident alien mother to tell me who to vote for, right? Or hell, you guys can tell me who to vote for. It'll amount to the same thing.

Money rules politics these days. I don't have the money to buy any votes or laws. Therefore, my vote is meaningless, because I don't have the wealth to back it up.

Or at least, that's how it's certainly presented these days.


With regard to who is elected as your representative to government, be it at local, state, or federal level, your vote does count (unless otherwise proven - I am applying "innocent until proven guilty" here).

What that elected representative does once he takes office is completely out of your hands. He (as in the grammatically correct generic form for "person", not distinguishing a gender) may or may not promote the platform that got him elected, and in fact will most likely respond to pressure from his contributors, lobbyists, and political party.

Furthermore, the US political spectrum from "OMG Communist" to "Ultra-Conservative" fits roughly within the center-right spectrum globally, so it really doesn't matter who you vote for in that regard. Regardless of the side of the aisle, there really isn't all that much difference among the mainstream of the parties, and the outliers are never going to get anything done anyway so aren't worth considering.

The people who do control things and pull all the strings are definitely going to vote, because in doing so they assure their hold on things. Republican or Democrat doesn't really matter as long as the guys who sing their tune make it back into office. So if you like that, you can vote or not vote and it makes next to no difference.

But if you don't like it, then you should vote against it by supporting pretty much anyone who isn't part of the existing machine. It may be futile at this point, but perhaps at some future date enough people will actually speak loudly enough to get something done. As was mentioned previously, 40% or so of eligible voters simply don't vote. If they voted as a block, they would have complete control of the government.

My mother is part of the machine - she's a devout Christian who would vote for Charles Manson if he ran on the Republican ticket, and she would do it for religious reaons because the Democrats support homosexual marriage and freedom of choice. And since Sharon Tate was pregnant at the time she was murdered by Manson's people, the irony there is rather thick.

But that's the sort of person out there voting. If for no other reason, get out and vote so you don't let my mother decide who runs the country.
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