[10H] Spine of Deathwing

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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Era » Wed May 02, 2012 4:38 pm

I hear that a lot of people are doing this with 1 tank and 3 healers now.

For that setup, how do you handle bloods? Positioning, killing, kiting, etc. Any information is of use!
For that setup, are you reliant on being able to take down plates in one lift, or still two?

Bonus questions:
Paladin tank or druid tank? Assume equal skill and gear (+400i).
Dodge/parry or hit/exp?

We struggle to find the "right tactic for us", that plus one of our healers going MIA...
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Winkle » Thu May 03, 2012 3:05 am

Era wrote:I hear that a lot of people are doing this with 1 tank and 3 healers now.

For that setup, how do you handle bloods? Positioning, killing, kiting, etc. Any information is of use!
For that setup, are you reliant on being able to take down plates in one lift, or still two?

Bonus questions:
Paladin tank or druid tank? Assume equal skill and gear (+400i).
Dodge/parry or hit/exp?

We struggle to find the "right tactic for us", that plus one of our healers going MIA...


I think maybe this tactic was a consideration when the fight was first released and the DPS tendon requirements were very high.

I guess with the 20% debuff you could 1 tank/3 heal and kill each tendon in 1 lift phase. Which would obviously make the fight a lot easier so maybe still worth considering.

When 1 tanking it you simply need to position the amalgamation on 1 side of you and bloods the other, you can stand up against the spine to help move bloods around a bit.

Up until the 2nd lift on the 2nd plate the bloods can just be killed as they spawn by DPS. Only on the 3rd plate would things begin to get messy.

The whole raid will want to stack on the tank as blood aggro can be an issue and your single tank won't want to be moving to much due to the risk of soaking bloods early.

TBH though sticking with 2 tanks/3 heals is probably the better solution unless 1 lift per tendon is viable for you.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Belloc » Thu May 03, 2012 2:46 pm

I'd imagine that using a DPS druid for tanking zero-stack Amalgamations would be an acceptable way to "solo-tank" this fight. If this enables a group to get single-lifts on tendons, then I couldn't see any real downside.

This is, of course, as opposed to having a druid tank go cat on tendons.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Fetzie » Thu May 03, 2012 3:07 pm

We just play it safe and do it with 2 tanks 3 heals and kill the boss in just over 10 minutes.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Era » Thu May 03, 2012 4:11 pm

Well, we just did this earlier today with a 2 tank 3 healer setup, so no more worries here! :wink: Got to the last phase of Madness within very few tries, so with some adjustments we should be able to get that down by another raid day or two.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby stevos » Fri May 04, 2012 10:19 am

We are running me (pala) and a feral druid. His hit/expertise capped with agi stacking, and so can put out some insane burst dps on the tendons, especially with the valor dps trinket. I am using spine dodge trinket and stam one. Avoidance stacking is useful for this fight i find.

I am on blob duty, since block cap helps here.

We have always run 2 tanks 3 healers, but then again our druid tank is doing some insane burst in cat form.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby jekoh » Fri May 04, 2012 12:26 pm

stevos wrote:I am on blob duty, since block cap helps here.


In fact paladin and war tank defense mechanics are the worst to mitigate damage comming from high number of adds hitting for moderate amount of damages
when you don't dodge or parry you take 50% to 70% of the damage as you block whereas a drood tank with active savage defense 100% uptime is close to mitigate the incomming blob damage by 80%
You can check several logs you will see that a drood tank on blobs is close to take half damage coming from blobs in comparison with a paladin or war tank for the same duty
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Era » Fri May 04, 2012 3:19 pm

For our kill we had the druid on blood duty, and I just used Holy Wrath stun when his "train" passed nearby.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Fetzie » Sat May 05, 2012 2:53 am

I'm on bloods duty because I am better at kiting than our feral druid is.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Schroom » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:10 am

Hi, we got some kind of blood management problem here.

after the 3rd Tendon burnphase (first burn on the second tendon) our warrior tank just dies as he already hast 30+ bloods here. So there must be something we do wrong.

how do you manage to get the least bloods possible.

I will describe what we do, so maybe someone could point out the error.

after several different tactics this here is what seems to work best for us until now:

I tank the amalgamation inside the bloods so I can stack up some debuffs on it a.s.a.p., so the early dead bloods don't crawl back inside DW and spawn more bloods. When I get about 5-6 stacks I ran out with it and we continue to dps the amalg until it is at about 10% (dots will put it to about 2-3% before it gets killed)

the warriortank and one of our rogues make sure they kill just enough bloods on the spot for em to collect to leave no surplus puddles after my amalg absorbs the missing dead bloods to reach 9 stacks. And, in a perfect try, no puddle crawls back and spawns new adds.

now we burn the tendon the first time while the warrior tank collects all the spawning bloods.

now we repeat the procedure.

When the tendon dies after the second burn we use raidcooldowns and nuke the bloods. every tank takes one of the new amalgs and collect as many puddles as possible, without reaching 9 stacks. Then we roll.

as I said using this tactics after the first burn on the second tendon we have 30+ bloods. and our warrior gets destroyed.

now we experimented a little bit and our best try we had, was while using heroism on the first tendon and burn it down in one lift so we could in fact "reset" the fight and skip a whole phase. (also one less dead amalg which means 5% more life for everyone for the whole fight)

with this (which is a bit risky, because if we fail to kill the tendon in one blow we are back at the start) we managed on getting past the first burnphase of the 3rd and last tendon and put it to 36%

now we only had about 26 bloods but then our healers died due to blood aggro while our warrior started kiting.

here are some logs if needed: http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/111370/
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Gab » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:35 am

Schroom wrote:I tank the amalgamation inside the bloods so I can stack up some debuffs on it a.s.a.p., so the early dead bloods don't crawl back inside DW and spawn more bloods. When I get about 5-6 stacks I ran out with it and we continue to dps the amalg until it is at about 10% (dots will put it to about 2-3% before it gets killed)


This is a waste of healer mana. No need to pick up any bloods until you're ready to start the blast.

Schroom wrote:When the tendon dies after the second burn we use raidcooldowns and nuke the bloods. every tank takes one of the new amalgs and collect as many puddles as possible, without reaching 9 stacks. Then we roll.


To make it easier we assign one tank to the amalgs and one tank to bloods. The blood tank keeps tanking the bloods next to where the plate has just blown off while the amalg tank rounds up the amalgs. Right before the roll the amalg tank drags all of the amalgs through blood pile and picks up as many as possible. Raid cooldowns can be used here if necessary as some of the amalgs will end up with high amounts of stacks, if they reach 9 it's fine they will get blown off shortly. This usually results in zero bloods left over after the first tendon and only a few left after the second tendon.

Schroom wrote:now we only had about 26 bloods but then our healers died due to blood aggro while our warrior started kiting.


Are you saying you start to kite before the 2nd tendon is dead? You really shouldn't be kiting at all until the 1st lift on the 3rd plate at least from my experiences. It really shouldn't be necessary as long as you are cleaning bloods prior to rolls after the 1st and 2nd tendon die. If the warrior tank is getting overwhelmed this early maybe you aren't killing enough bloods? Not sure because no one is really ever in danger of death until after the 1st lift on the 3rd plate for our group.

The amalg tank should be picking up the loose bloods after the blood tank has started kiting. Stacking up the raid near the plate as this point helps to insure the healers don't get too many bloods on them. Also BoPs and glyphed Salvs really help with healer aggro here.

Edit: It also helps if you are making sure to get a stack or two of the earth (damage reduction) buff on your blood tank although with the nerf it's not absolutely necessary but certainly still helpful.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Schroom » Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:48 am

Are you saying you start to kite before the 2nd tendon is dead?


exactly this sit he problem, at this point we usually have about 30 or more bloods already.

the thing is we are not sure when and if to kill them all, as they do pretty a pretty decent amount of damage to the raid.

allthough the thing with stacking the bloods near the hole before the barel roll. is one thing to approve it already. thanks for that we'll try that out on our next attempt on sunday.

This is a waste of healer mana. No need to pick up any bloods until you're ready to start the blast.


we seperated the camps before an I only startet collecting right before we killed the amalg. the problem here was that some puddles already crawled back. I gues they just died to early then, as we killed one blood after the other. not all at once. because of the inc damage this does.


what I get out of this.

so if get you right. you think it would be best to nuke the bloods in 2 situation.
first right before we kill the amalg, and then right before we barrel roll. each time with raid cooldowns in order to survive the incoming damage.

I'm not sure we got enough raid cooldowns for that though. I have to check on that and try it out and get feedback form our healers.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Gab » Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:03 am

Schroom wrote:exactly this sit he problem, at this point we usually have about 30 or more bloods already.


Make sure you are getting them cleaned up with amalgs before the roll, it sounds like this is where most of your problem might be coming from.

Schroom wrote:the thing is we are not sure when and if to kill them all, as they do pretty a pretty decent amount of damage to the raid.


Schroom wrote:we seperated the camps before an I only startet collecting right before we killed the amalg. the problem here was that some puddles already crawled back. I gues they just died to early then, as we killed one blood after the other. not all at once. because of the inc damage this does.

so if get you right. you think it would be best to nuke the bloods in 2 situation. first right before we kill the amalg, and then right before we barrel roll. each time with raid cooldowns in order to survive the incoming damage.


You don't need to aoe them down all at once. The tank, and one or two dps when necessary, can kill them one at a time or a few at a time without spiking the raid damage. It's important to make sure most or all of the bloods are dead prior to the amalags soaking them up before the roll so finish up any that are left over at this point. Again they don't all need to die at the same time if you are having trouble with the raid damage; try to stagger them a bit.

I have never noticed, on the first plate, a blood returning to the hole... We let 3 bloods spawn before the very first roll and then start killing them after the amalg we are going to use to pop the plate spawns, by the time the amalg gets low we have our nine bloods.

Schroom wrote:I'm not sure we got enough raid cooldowns for that though. I have to check on that and try it out and get feedback form our healers.


You shouldn't need raid cooldowns for the bloods dieing, only for 9 stack amalgs when rolling and on 3rd plate lifts.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Schroom » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:49 pm

Ok, thank you very much. I think. killing all the blodds, or at least, as much as possible bevor soaking. is key. And the one thing we did wrong here. We'll do that on sunday and hopefully, get out victorious.
Last edited by Schroom on Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:44 pm

We two tank/three heal this, since more DPS is pointless unless you can bring enough DPS to kill a tendon in a single lift. Otherwise, you're still stuck waiting around, and might as well make the healer's lives easier.

We have a bear tank on the amalg; I tank adds. Two resto shaman and a holy paladin make this stupidly easier. We've two healed with the shaman and paladin, but there wasn't any "real savings" since the one additional DPS didn't allow us to skip a lift.

Kill two left tentacles. Roll left (clearing the two amalgs) while dpsing right rear tentacle. By the time the roll is finished, right rear tentacle is about dead. Finish it off. Amalg tank picks up add and holds it in the back. I tank bloods against the plate with ranged DPS and healers stacked on me to make pickup trivial.

We generally have melee on the amalgs, maybe one melee on bloods, with ranged dps split on the amalg and bloods. We just kill bloods as they spawn throughout the entire fight.

Sometimes DPS has to sit around and wait for bloods to finish spawning while we count off bloods in our best bad Transylvanian accents.

When the amalg hits around 500k (higher if lots of dot DPS, lower if not) the amalg tank runs it to my position and soaks up 9 bloods. Ideally it dies before it pulses, but you're guaranteed once pulse. Two is okay. Five is right out.

1st plate, 1st lift. DPS tendon very hard. No bloodlust. If all goes well, the fight isn't going to be long enough to use it twice.

Kill remaining tentacle; it sometimes dies right before the lift (due to break damage) and the amalg tank has to hang out with it in the back or something.

Wait for 9 blood. Take a nap or grab a drink or something.

1st plate, 2nd lift. Finish off Tendon. Plate lifts.

There are now 3 tentacles and one amalg up. If the leftover tentacle is on the left side, kill it (leaving 2 tentacles up) and roll *right*, so the new amalg will path through the bloods and clean up a bit (and vice versa). Ideally the leftover amalg and newly spawned amalg will clean up the majority of the blood on the ground, without nuking the crap out of the raid. If people don't fuck up movement, even if an amalg picks up 9 you won't eat any pulses.

Kill another tentacle; amalg tank picks it up.

2nd plate, 1st lift.

Rinse, repeat. Yawn.

2nd plate, 2nd lift.

Again, one amalg and 3 tentacles. Kill a tentacle and roll the opposite direction, trying to feed the amalgs as many bloods as possible. We have raid CDs running for every roll.

3rd plate, 1st lift. Bloodlust here.

3rd plate, 2nd lift. If you've been unlucky with the rolls you may start getting overwhelmed with adds at this point. Up till now there should be no need to kite; you can just plant yourself against the plate and keep the blood in a fixed location. If you do start having issues, then feel free to kite. We very rarely need to do this, and only when we have very sub par DPS.

Looking at the last several weeks of logs, this fight is around 10:20 - 10:50 (our 2 heal was actually 10:50, with our fastest kill in the logs being 10:20).

In hindsight, I wonder if lust would be better saved for the last amalg, just to make that final bit faster. If tentacle DPS is a non-issue (if you can be sure you could always do 60% per lift), this might make more sense, now that I think about it.
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