[Rogue] Optimising performance

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Baelor

[Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Epimer » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:16 am

I - like everyone else in 4.3, I suspect - have a rogue alt, who has the 397 daggers which form the first reward from the legendary questline. With this in mind, and the ready availability of 378 gear, I think it's about time I really tried to push the envelope a bit on him. I don't do badly on him relative to the denizens of LFR, but that's hardly a reasonable measure of success given how the low the standard is set.

The Combat rotation is very straightforward. I've already got my head around the simple tips from EJ, such as lining up Killing Spree with Bandit's Guile rather than using it on cooldown (and I have a timer telling me how long's left on the buff, so I can try to time it with Landslide procs if that's possible), correct use of Revealing Strike (rocket surgery it ain't), and as I'm becoming more familiar with the encounters I'm getting better with timing Adrenaline Rush uses.

What other bits and pieces are there to optimise around? I confess that I don't use Rupture at all, as EJ said it's only a DPS increase if there's a bleed damage debuff on the boss and even then it's only around a 1% increase; given that it's an alt and I'm not used to a DPS role I figure I probably end up ahead by simple ignoring it.

Also, any tips for Subtlety? I like the play-style much, much more than Combat but there are a few Sub-unfriendly encounters in LFR and, more to the point, "optimising" my Subtlety DPS really means "not messing up the rotation and trying to maximise Find Weakness uptime" rather than anything more advanced.
User avatar
Epimer
 
Posts: 1106
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:54 am

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Flex » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:32 am

The best part of roguing as combat is when you mistime Killing Spree in the fight and it does something whacky like follow the worm as he frees himself from being pinned down and you fall in the lava behind him or it flies up to Alysrazor and you fall to your death.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Epimer » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:51 am

Or you use it on the Burning Tendon on Spine and somehow end up at the opposite end of Deathwing to where you started.
User avatar
Epimer
 
Posts: 1106
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:54 am

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby d07.RiV » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:40 pm

I'm in the same boat, though I leveled it a couple weeks before 4.3 so I had time to gear up a bit in FL (ironically out of 4 391 items I got 2 were weapons, and you know where they are now) and am slowly collecting crystalls in alt raids.
Combat is really easy in the sense that you can give your entire attention to the encounter without messing up the rotation, with very little practice. And its doing great in almost all of DS encounters.

As far as rupture goes, the whole point is that it costs 25 energy as opposed to eviscerate's 35, so it ends up being slightly more effective unless you clip it or use shortly before deep insight falls off.

I tried subtlety for a change (can't try assassination because I have too little mastery on my gear), and it gave an unexpectedly high result on LFR zon'ozz, like 10k higher than I got in combat, though that's a pretty bad fight to compare numbers. Wish they made a patchwerk that could be backstabbed - if not for that, LFR ultraxion is the perfect fight for measuring your DPS, since its readily available after a 5 min queue and 5 min trash, and you don't have to do anything at all besides attacking the boss.
Image
d07.RiV
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:53 pm

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Levantine » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:55 pm

How is sub performing overall in raids these days? I have a rogue alt I'm levelling but combat and assassination are uninspiring to me. If sub is performing acceptably these days I reckon I might have the inspiration to play her again.
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 7367
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:03 pm

According to the interview of the Korean guild that got WF... sub is completely viable.

d07.RiV wrote:As far as rupture goes, the whole point is that it costs 25 energy as opposed to eviscerate's 35, so it ends up being slightly more effective unless you clip it or use shortly before deep insight falls off.

Do bleeds not function the same as dots, as in clipping just continues the tics instead of resetting them?
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3587
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Koatanga » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:48 pm

Skye1013 wrote:Do bleeds not function the same as dots, as in clipping just continues the tics instead of resetting them?

If you re-cast rupture with tics left, you don't add time to the existing rupture; you replace it with a new rupture.

That effectively reduces the total amount of damage done by the energy investment in the previous rupture. In a perfect world, you always have 5 cp available for the new rupture immediately as the old one expires, but in reality that it not the case. You either end up clipping or have rupture downtime.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1687
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Epimer » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:13 am

Levantine wrote:How is sub performing overall in raids these days? I have a rogue alt I'm levelling but combat and assassination are uninspiring to me. If sub is performing acceptably these days I reckon I might have the inspiration to play her again.


Yeah, I kinda hate Combat a bit. It's a 2.5 button spec with 2 cooldowns for me, and I don't enjoy playing it.

Sub as a spec is definitely viable but it suffers on some fights in DS, and since it has basically no AoE capabilities it doesn't do great damage overall in 5 mans or on trash (I think the fact that Combat's great single target --> great AoE difference means toggling one ability on or off pretty much sums up the spec for me).

It's fine for the first half of LFR (where by "fine" I mean "you should top the meters in good gear unless you queue with competent people"; usual disclaimer about how low that bar is set by your competitors in LFR), terrible for Ultraxion, passable for Blackhorn, fine for Spine (but for both Blackhorn and Spine you'd probably see better numbers as Combat because of cleaveable stuffs), and I haven't tried it on Deathwing and don't know off the top of my head what you can and can't backstab in that fight.

I don't actually know why KIN took 4 Sub Rogues to Spine, but I'm guessing it's for the good burst on the Tendons. Shadowstep did funny things there for me, but then so does Killing Spree.

TL;DR Sub is good for boss fights these days, and is just about living up to the reputation of being harder to play than the other specs but performing well if you can manage it. I much prefer it to Combat, not because I have the mad skillz for it, but because it's just so much more interesting to play and gives me things to work on.
User avatar
Epimer
 
Posts: 1106
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:54 am

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Levantine » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:11 am

Combat feels like arcane except dumber to me. SS into Evis -> blast into missiles. Energy pooling -> mana management. Combat just doesn't have a parallel to arcane power and thus lacks the hilarious burn phase. At least assassination has vendetta to give it a power cooldown. Sub just seems that little bit more interesting.
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 7367
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Flex » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:41 am

Combat is all about coordinating your cooldowns. Our rogue is combat, when he gets it right there is a significant jump in his DPS vs when he gets it wrong.

Personally I hate daggers and prefer the swashbuckler archetype so my rogue was combat until I deleted her due to the near removal of the Agi sword.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Aoaga » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:16 pm

There were such nice AGI swords in the past too, I found an excellent looking pattern drop off some Kara Trash....Felsteel Longblade I think...? Very cool too becasue its a 1Hander that sheaths on your back, so you look like a Ninja Swashbuckler Flex....mats suck but looks are to die for.
Aoaga
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:39 pm

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby djlar » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:03 pm

I'm combat most of the time, I go sub on H Morchok to be soaking damage, if I fail once it's OK, I have cheat death talented and enveloping shadows for 30% less damage (but lately I'm thinking getting rid of cheat death because I can take a stomp with just feint.

I've tried sub in other bosses but it just doesn't cut it, perhaps because I'm specced in heavy damage avoidance instead of DPS and I'm also not used to chasing the bosses arse... (I hate when the mob turns suddenly and I can't backstab it)..

Also most of the fights have adds that I could cleave in combat with not much effort, I could go lock-style in sub and hemorrage every mob or something.. but being melee is a bit too much work.. LOL.
Image
djlar
 
Posts: 1421
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:30 am

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Darielle » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:54 pm

Do bleeds not function the same as dots, as in clipping just continues the tics instead of resetting them?


Dots only add on the last tick. Bleeds work the same way.

e.g.
Rip ticks every 2 seconds and lasts 16 secs base. If you refresh Rip at 3 seconds left, you'll lose the last tick. If you refresh Rip at 1 second left (before the last tick), you'll get a 17 second Rip, and the last tick will be carried over.
Rupture should work the same way - if you actually CLIP Rupture, you're refreshing it 3 or more seconds before it falls over, so you lose the last tick of damage completely.

Sub's better than Combat for Morchok and around equal on Hagara. The other fights either have too much target switching or allow skillCleaving.
Darielle
 
Posts: 853
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:24 am

"Lose" from an energy per damage standpoint, but it shouldn't reset the tic timer like it used to, which could potentially be a larger loss of damage. Kind of like how you can refresh Devouring Plague early (Imp. DP makes up for the "lost" tic damage, but it still gives continuous uptime without resetting.)

That being said, with any dot/bleed, you usually want to wait until the last possible second to refresh it to get as much Damage per Energy/Rage/Mana without actually letting it fall off.


***Disclaimer: This is how I've come to understand the mechanics, if you have better information, please enlighten everyone.***
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3587
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:18 am

Thing is the difference between a ruptureless rotation and using rupture is extremely small for combat, to the extent that if you're going to be consistently reducing the dpe/dpcp of your ruptures by clipping them you should probably not be bothering with a rupture rotation in the first place.
Rhiannon
 
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:17 am

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Darielle » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:13 am

Rhiannon wrote:Thing is the difference between a ruptureless rotation and using rupture is extremely small for combat, to the extent that if you're going to be consistently reducing the dpe/dpcp of your ruptures by clipping them you should probably not be bothering with a rupture rotation in the first place.


This.
Darielle
 
Posts: 853
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:39 am

So, what you're saying is, bleeds follow the same coding, but consistant uptime isn't required for max dps (unlike a priest/lock.)
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3587
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Darielle » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:41 am

If you have the right settings, and you can keep Bleeds up consistently, you will get a tiny amount more dps with good Bleed uptime.

But if you're cutting into your efficiency by clipping Bleeds, or you're losing out on the right settings (say for example, the Feral is off doing something on the other side of the room and you don't have Mangle), you shouldn't bother with Rupture because you're either getting nothing for bothering about Rupture, or losing out dps because of your inefficienc, so just Eviscerate all the things.
Darielle
 
Posts: 853
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby bldavis » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:35 pm

im honestly thinking about just switching to pure evis combat
according to EJ its only about 1% dps loss
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:15 am

I think I actually increased my DPS by dropping Rupture from my rotation as Combat.



As such, I'm looking for any tips on a Sub rotation. According to sims, it's about a 1200 dps increase over combat with my current gear.
Image
Fenrìr
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:41 am

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby bldavis » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:24 am

it depends on the fight
if you are one a single target fight, 100% uptime and are able to backstab, yes it is a big increase
but i dont know of any fights like that in DS

as far as rupture, it depends on your raid comp and time on target
if you have an arms warrior or a feral druid (either spec) then rupture will add some dps
if you dont have the bleed dam+ debuff...stick with SnD+Evis
(it is a different spec as well, i dont remember exactly what changes but it is only like 2-3 points)
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Cogglamp » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:33 pm

Doesn't Hemo provide the same debuff as Blood Frenzy/Mangle? Or do pve sub rogues not take Hemo?
Cogglamp
 
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:04 am

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:04 pm

Cogglamp wrote:Doesn't Hemo provide the same debuff as Blood Frenzy/Mangle? Or do pve sub rogues not take Hemo?


Sub rogues take hemo, and sub rogues keep rupture up. Not using rupture as sub is doing it wrong with the exception of a valiona/theralion add killing spec from t11, given that evis automatically refreshes it and you get a 16% damage buff for attacking a mob with a bleed on it. I think bldavis was talking about rupture usage as combat.

Sub's only particularly decent on Morchok, Hagara and Spine though.
Rhiannon
 
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:17 am

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby Cogglamp » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:15 pm

Ah, I see. My bad.
Cogglamp
 
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:04 am

Re: [Rogue] Optimising performance

Postby bldavis » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:22 pm

Rhiannon wrote:
Cogglamp wrote:Doesn't Hemo provide the same debuff as Blood Frenzy/Mangle? Or do pve sub rogues not take Hemo?


Sub rogues take hemo, and sub rogues keep rupture up. Not using rupture as sub is doing it wrong with the exception of a valiona/theralion add killing spec from t11, given that evis automatically refreshes it and you get a 16% damage buff for attacking a mob with a bleed on it. I think bldavis was talking about rupture usage as combat.

Sub's only particularly decent on Morchok, Hagara and Spine though.

yeah i was, sorry bout not making it clearer
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Next

Return to Off-specs & Other Classes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest