Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:48 pm

I've just updated all of the calculations to use the T13H gear set. This will be the last update for Cataclysm, as we don't expect to get any more new content or gear before 5.0. I've also tagged the final version of the code for 4.3.2. From now on, we'll be focusing our development effort on the 5.0 code.

If anyone is interested in joining the development effort, we can always use more help. I'm already working on the 5.0 code, so people with coding experience can jump in right away if they want to. Once the beta becomes available we'll need lots of testing done, so there will be ways for people who have no programming experience to contribute.

Within a few weeks I'll have a 5.0 thread and a new Call to Arms thread up for discussion of the new code. Feel free to continue using this thread to discuss the current simulations or for feature requests for the 5.0 code.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby econ21 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:40 am

Thanks for all your hard work, theck.

I am curious - where would one find out the formulae for the damage done by our various abilities? e.g. how they depend on weapon dps, strength, spell power etc? I know it would be in your matlab code, but are there external links that give the formulae or is it mainly stuff that you have divined through your own testing?

The reason for asking is that I thinking about Prot PvP and whether it would imply different stat weights from those from your PvE rotation. From a comparison of recount in PvE and PvP, I can see differences in the share of damage from different abilities (primarily CS and ShotR account for 10 percentage points less of damage each in PvP relative to working out on a training dummy) but I don't know what that would imply for stat weights. I am thinking about issues such as whether to use Soul Drinker or a higher tier PvP weapon; whether to gem strength or resilience etc. Your simulations give a good basis for quantifying some effects given a PvE rotation; I'd like to get an insight into how things may differ in a more messy PvP context.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:14 am

econ21 wrote:Prot PvP

Just a reminder that vengeance doesn't build up from player damage anymore. I'm sure you know that, but it does make Prot damage a bit laughable now.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:26 am

Skye1013 wrote:
econ21 wrote:Prot PvP

Just a reminder that vengeance doesn't build up from player damage anymore. I'm sure you know that, but it does make Prot damage a bit laughable now.

I'm pretty sure that change was reverted in a hotfix, because it was causing the ludicrous SoT damage bug.

As far as the formulas, most of it is from rigorous testing on our part (the exact type of testing we'll have to perform in the MoP beta). If you want to scrutinize the equations, they're all in ability_model (linking you to a tagged version, as we're already cleaning out the trunk in preparation for MoP).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:40 am

theckhd wrote:I'm pretty sure that change was reverted in a hotfix, because it was causing the ludicrous SoT damage bug.

Interesting, if true...
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Worldie » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:09 am

theckhd wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:
econ21 wrote:Prot PvP

Just a reminder that vengeance doesn't build up from player damage anymore. I'm sure you know that, but it does make Prot damage a bit laughable now.

I'm pretty sure that change was reverted in a hotfix, because it was causing the ludicrous SoT damage bug.

As far as the formulas, most of it is from rigorous testing on our part (the exact type of testing we'll have to perform in the MoP beta). If you want to scrutinize the equations, they're all in ability_model (linking you to a tagged version, as we're already cleaning out the trunk in preparation for MoP).

What was causing the bug with SoT had something to deal with Hunter's Scatter Shot.

The "no vengeance from PvP" was in the patch notes and should still be in place.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:15 am

Ah, found the blue post I was thinking of: http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/263 ... aladin-Bug

So for the most part, Vengeance is gone in PvP.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Iminmmnni » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:58 pm

econ21 wrote:Your simulations give a good basis for quantifying some effects given a PvE rotation; I'd like to get an insight into how things may differ in a more messy PvP context.


The main issue I see with using a PvE rotation model for PvP is that the rotation code assumes you are always in melee range and can always attempt to hit your target - something that is definitely not true in PvP. It might be useful to gauge stat weighting on ability damage based on your PvP recount casts but if you ever manage to actually get a rotation happening in PvP then you opponents are probably doing something wrong ;)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kelaan » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:18 pm

You generally still do the same rotation in PvP, the issue is that things like Hands of Protection, Freedom, and Sacrifice or WoG (or cleanse) are higher priority than almost any of that. You still need to focus on building holy power and spending it well -- it's just that you're not always spending it on damage. That's not going to change. The main differences are that mana regen, and building holy power, are in some ways MORE important, since your dps matters in PvP more than in pve.

If you're not in melee range, you are still using judgement and AS. We're not surprised by this. When you are in melee range, Theck's hit/exp capped values are likely pretty well applicable (as both are easy to cap via reforging in PvP gear).

Same for Ret. You aren't mashing buttons, you're trying to do the same stuff you do in PvE: push out damage, and keep people from dying. (Exception: sometimes it's better to spend HP on TV rather than Inq, it seems, but running w/o Inq up seems to hurt long-term.)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Schroom » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:30 am

Yesterday, I got my hands no No'kaled normal (which is my 3rd weapon next to Souldrinker normal and Hand of Morchok HM), as we have no Shaman and our rogue got his Legendary already. I'm pretty curious if I will get a noticeable difference, compared to Souldrinker normal, in means of DPS. yes Thecks numbers say No'kaled is better in DPS terms, but does anyone have a practical experience, using this weapon?

by the way I'm at 26 Exp and 1,47% Hit.

and what I guess would be more interessting, as Souldrinker scales with stamina, does it make such a difference, that at a certain point with XX stamina, souldirnker would be bether in DPS as No'kaled?

here a link to my toon if anyone needs it: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/d ... m/advanced
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:24 am

No'Kaled's easily better dps than Souldrinker in practice as well as from the sim. Typically (416) No'Kaled procs account for about 6% of my damage while (416) Souldrinker procs account for about 2%, or a roughly 1200 dps difference. The 250ish strength on Souldrinker is only worth 350 or so DPS iirc. No'Kaled on Morchok, Hagara and Ultraxion compared to Souldrinker on the same bosses the week before. Think I was hit capped and soft exp capped on those bosses in both logs, if not then very close to.

As far as stamina scaling, the proc scales linearly with your hp (though not with the Baleroc hp buff - both weapons scale with Alys buff fwiw), so if with 200k hp it's worth roughly 600 dps, with 300k hp it'd be worth 900 dps. You'd need more HP than it's possible to obtain in this tier for it to get anywhere near to No'Kaled.

Edit: actually checking the weapon comparison chart again, the simmed gap between Souldrinker and No'Kaled seems a lot smaller than what I've seen in practice. Admittedly my sample size is fairly small at the moment but curious if I'm misinterpreting my logs or the sim's undervaluing No'Kaled or there's some other issue. At a guess it's because I'm wearing quite a bit less stamina than the gear set in the sim, and quite a bit more strength (in an actual fight).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:37 am

Rhiannon wrote:Edit: actually checking the weapon comparison chart again, the simmed gap between Souldrinker and No'Kaled seems a lot smaller than what I've seen in practice. Admittedly my sample size is fairly small at the moment but curious if I'm misinterpreting my logs or the sim's undervaluing No'Kaled or there's some other issue. At a guess it's because I'm wearing quite a bit less stamina than the gear set in the sim, and quite a bit more strength (in an actual fight).


It may be the stamina, or it may be that our modeling of No'Kaled's proc is slightly off. Wowhead seems to indicate that each has its own proc spell, so it's possible that the proc rate is different for each version (iirc we never tested this).

<edit> Also, no wonder you had so little trouble beating my #1 parse. Up until this past weekend, I didn't have a heroic Souldrinker, and I still don't have any No'Kaled. I guess there's no point in trying again until I acquire one, if it's really 6% of your damage.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:38 am

I got confused and thought the axe scaled with AP in some way, probably got it mixed up with the random trinkets. Now that I look at the logs again it definitely looks like a proc rate issue, as I'm seeing a similar number of No'Kaled procs to Souldrinker procs in kills of similar lengths despite it supposedly having less than half the proc rate (25 axe procs vs 25 drain life procs in 4:01/4:02 Hagara kills, 43 axe procs vs 43 drain life procs in 4:53/4:39 Ultraxion kills). I'll mess around on a dummy later and see if I can pin it down. Initial hunch is that when they "fixed" censure application (edit: seal of truth hits) proccing soul drinker and gurth they might have just fixed those two weapons and not done a class-wide mechanic change but that's just speculation (which wouldn't make a lot of sense from an overall design point of view either).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:25 pm

Rhiannon wrote:Initial hunch is that when they "fixed" censure application (edit: seal of truth hits) proccing soul drinker and gurth they might have just fixed those two weapons and not done a class-wide mechanic change but that's just speculation (which wouldn't make a lot of sense from an overall design point of view either).

I could definitely see that happening.

Regarding Stamina, I was pointing out that Souldrinker heals are based on max health, thus a low-stam gear set will weaken SD with respect to NK.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Schroom » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:09 pm

thanks for the great answers tho, I will check this out on the next farmbosses next week and compare my logs aswell. But thanks for the claryfication on the scaling and so on :)
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