Remove Advertisements

Paladins are the worst tanks?

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:35 pm

Fenrìr wrote:
theckhd wrote:If you're doing 10-man and two-tanking, 1) Why??, 2) You can completely ignore all of that because the debuff on 10-man is a joke. Just wear whatever. Probably DPS gear, since with 2 tanks you might need the extra DPS.




I really wouldn't suggest doing this, especially in a guild that already has you slated as being the least favored class.

I do not necessarily agree with the whole '10 man is easier' argument either; especially on heroic progression. Each raid size has it's easier fights and it's harder ones. Yor'sahj, while not as difficult to get the mechanics right as say...Zonozz, was still a fairly difficult fight on 10 man pre-nerf to get CDs right, healers to not pop traq or other AoE heals during Purple, and to actually get people to move quicker for globules.

Personally, I would think the debuff would be easier on 25 as there's more external CDs to use from varying DPS.


He wasn't making a generalisation about 10 mans as a whole, he was talking about the void bolt debuff. On 10 man it ticks for 7k/stack before resists/zone debuff, on 25 man it ticks for 50k. Obviously it's trivial if you're two-tanking on 10 man compared to 25, as 10 man's tuned around being solo tanked.
Rhiannon
 
Posts: 1061
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:17 am

Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fenrìr » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:08 am

I know what Theck was describing, Rhia.

I wouldn't necessarily call it trivial if you're progressing on it either. It was quite a pain progressing on it before the nerfs even with my guild dual tanking it.

Can either myself or the feral doo-dad solo tank it? Sure, we could, but we just stick with our strategies cause it's what we know and we still clear the instance in 3'ish hours depending on trials and such.
Image
Fenrìr
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1237
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:41 am

Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:10 am

A DoT ticking for 7k-14k (one to two stacks) is trivial, you can offset all of that with SoI and WoG, or one or two HoTs. If you're progressing on heroic Yor'sahj, and you're two-tanking for some insane reason, then the DoT is trivial and not worth gearing for. In fact, if you're two-tanking that fight at all, tank survivability is trivial, and was at 0%.

If you're seriously wiping to tank death on heroic Yor'sahj while two-tanking it, your healers are absolutely terrible. Period. The fight is and always has been a one-tank fight on 10-man.

At 0%, the enrage timer was non-trivial, so you couldn't easily afford to two-tank it either. With the 15% nerfs, the DPS requirements are relaxed slightly, so two-tanking is an option, it's just not a very smart one. With the 15% nerf, even one-tanking it isn't as scary anymore, and that fight gets much easier with extra DPS overhead, so you're still better off one-tanking it.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7718
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:51 pm

theckhd wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I still find the notion that class balance matters less to lower end guilds, by definition means that pretty much everything matters less for lower end guilds. In the very least, the way we parse out everything from best in slot gear, to enchants, to gems, to talent choices, to gloss over class balance with the, "it does not matter (much/at all) so don't worry about it, just play better" just doesn't pass the sniff test to me.

Actually, I think all of that is true. Choosing proper gems, talents, etc. all matter less to a less-progressed guild for the same reason I think that tank choice matters less.
And I just can't find the logic in that. I see skill as a multiplier. Sure more progessed guilds get more output out of all of those things, if what you mean is that 1 more Power creates more of an impact in terms of DPS for a more progressed guild, sure, but that's not what I'm talking about.

We see it tier after tier after tier, less skilled guilds require more gear to progress, while the top end guilds frankly could clear the content without upgrades (and sometimes they do just for fun). Elite guilds may make better use of those stats, but they are very quickly above the minimum to beat an encounter for their skill anyhow, for less progressed guilds those things can be absolutely crucial for progressing, even still many of them fail to complete everything. Whereas for the more progressed guilds it only matters for their race, that they are going to beat the encounters is never really in doubt.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9665
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:21 am

But still, Theck, I wouldn't necessarily call a dot a 'joke' to a guild that has never done the fight on heroic. Not as much of a concern is a much better use of words. To those of us who have been farming the content for months now, sure, it's a joke and I've tried to suggest one tanking it; but we stick to our ways and move on about our weekend.

Even with two tanking the fight still, there are times when my healers are snoozing (or more than likely wanting to pad meters) and my health drops with 3, the occasional 4th stack. It's still a bit worrisome, especially with purple out considering we don't have a holy paladin on our roster. And our only healer that's been around since our first kill is a resto doo-dad who was sat the first couple of weeks. The other two healing slots we have...have been rotated through four times around, working on our fifth.
Image
Fenrìr
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1237
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:41 am

Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby degre » Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:19 am

Fridmarr wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I still find the notion that class balance matters less to lower end guilds, by definition means that pretty much everything matters less for lower end guilds. In the very least, the way we parse out everything from best in slot gear, to enchants, to gems, to talent choices, to gloss over class balance with the, "it does not matter (much/at all) so don't worry about it, just play better" just doesn't pass the sniff test to me.

Actually, I think all of that is true. Choosing proper gems, talents, etc. all matter less to a less-progressed guild for the same reason I think that tank choice matters less.
And I just can't find the logic in that. I see skill as a multiplier. Sure more progessed guilds get more output out of all of those things, if what you mean is that 1 more Power creates more of an impact in terms of DPS for a more progressed guild, sure, but that's not what I'm talking about.

We see it tier after tier after tier, less skilled guilds require more gear to progress, while the top end guilds frankly could clear the content without upgrades (and sometimes they do just for fun). Elite guilds may make better use of those stats, but they are very quickly above the minimum to beat an encounter for their skill anyhow, for less progressed guilds those things can be absolutely crucial for progressing, even still many of them fail to complete everything. Whereas for the more progressed guilds it only matters for their race, that they are going to beat the encounters is never really in doubt.

No, as stated again and again, minimal changes become less and less important the lower you go for the simple reason that difference in skill make those changes trivial.

Whereas at a top level changing all gems to epic and having that 100 strength more could give you that hairsplit difference between a wipe and success, at lower levels to see the difference you need a wider gap as more often than not what kills you is not a hairsplit but someone fuckin' up a mechanic.

Just yesterday we went to Ultraxxion again, you would think is farm content by now as we've killed him 4 times already before yesterday, still we've had a couple of wipes caused by people who can't press a button when required, and as we all know, a dead dps does no dps and I would say to lower end guilds that's a bigger difference than class balance or a few epic gems.
On EU-Kadghar: Degre | Beldegre | Degrotto | Koshien
User avatar
degre
 
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:11 pm
Location: Oxford, UK

Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby theckhd » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:13 am

Fenrìr wrote:But still, Theck, I wouldn't necessarily call a dot a 'joke' to a guild that has never done the fight on heroic. Not as much of a concern is a much better use of words. To those of us who have been farming the content for months now, sure, it's a joke and I've tried to suggest one tanking it; but we stick to our ways and move on about our weekend.

Even with two tanking the fight still, there are times when my healers are snoozing (or more than likely wanting to pad meters) and my health drops with 3, the occasional 4th stack. It's still a bit worrisome, especially with purple out considering we don't have a holy paladin on our roster. And our only healer that's been around since our first kill is a resto doo-dad who was sat the first couple of weeks. The other two healing slots we have...have been rotated through four times around, working on our fifth.


I stand by my original statement about your healers then. If they can't handle a DoT that ticks at maximum for 14k and boss melee attacks split between two tanks, when most guilds (and in my case our alt run) one-tank the fight and don't have tank death problems with 7+ stacks of said DoT and all of the melee attacks focused on one tank, then you need better healers.

I should add that we don't have a holy paladin either. We heal that fight with 2 resto druids and an off-spec priest or shaman.

Are you guys two-healing it or something? Because that's the only legitimate way I can think of that you'd be having trouble with tank death.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7718
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:35 am

degre wrote:No, as stated again and again, minimal changes become less and less important the lower you go for the simple reason that difference in skill make those changes trivial.

Whereas at a top level changing all gems to epic and having that 100 strength more could give you that hairsplit difference between a wipe and success, at lower levels to see the difference you need a wider gap as more often than not what kills you is not a hairsplit but someone fuckin' up a mechanic.

Just yesterday we went to Ultraxxion again, you would think is farm content by now as we've killed him 4 times already before yesterday, still we've had a couple of wipes caused by people who can't press a button when required, and as we all know, a dead dps does no dps and I would say to lower end guilds that's a bigger difference than class balance or a few epic gems.

I'm not sure how that doesn't just exactly prove my point. Lower skilled guilds are often stressing aspects of their raids with their mistakes, as you point out. In a flawlessly executed encounter, no one has to overcome the early death of a DPSer.

Now, I say this again...I'm not saying stats matter more than skill. I'm saying stats matter more for you, than the guild that has much better execution. Skill IS the biggest difference, skill is the best way to increase your success, but skill is very hard to improve on. Execution will improve with practice, but not really beyond your skill level. Things like reaction time, situational awareness, the ability to multitask, tunnel vision, etc don't really improve much after a time. So in the absence of skill, those stats matter a lot more, and since less progressed guilds have less skill it's vital for them to find every other advantage that they can.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9665
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby theckhd » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:38 am

Fridmarr wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I still find the notion that class balance matters less to lower end guilds, by definition means that pretty much everything matters less for lower end guilds. In the very least, the way we parse out everything from best in slot gear, to enchants, to gems, to talent choices, to gloss over class balance with the, "it does not matter (much/at all) so don't worry about it, just play better" just doesn't pass the sniff test to me.

Actually, I think all of that is true. Choosing proper gems, talents, etc. all matter less to a less-progressed guild for the same reason I think that tank choice matters less.
And I just can't find the logic in that. I see skill as a multiplier. Sure more progessed guilds get more output out of all of those things, if what you mean is that 1 more Power creates more of an impact in terms of DPS for a more progressed guild, sure, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Because having an additional 100 or 1000 DPS via proper gemming doesn't have as large an impact when you're wiping to standing in the fire.

Going back to the multi-roll analogy, your first roll is "did we manage to not have someone stand in fire." If you only have a 70% chance to succeed there, then any modifiers or effects on subsequent rolls are 30% less effective than they could be if you were playing perfectly. It's exactly like the two-roll block system - the more avoidance you have, the less important block becomes.

As the guild improves their execution and makes that first roll more likely, they start getting more benefit out of those gems and what not. But generally a week-13 guild far out-gears the content, so they don't need that extra DPS potential to beat the enrage - they just need to execute properly. I'd wager that most of the wipes to Ultraxion at this point aren't because guilds can't make the enrage, but because they're having trouble getting a pull where everyone hits the button at the right time.

Again, I'm not saying that gear is unimportant. The cumulative effect does make a difference, even at low skill levels. Eventually you gear up enough to brute force the encounter, even if you don't properly get the mechanics down (i.e. eventually you'll have enough DPS that it won't matter that the hunter always dies to Fading Light, or that the rogue is pulling 10k DPS less than he should be). It's just less of a factor than working on execution. The only reason people make a big deal about gems and enchants is that there's no skill involved in getting them right. The fact that they don't make a very large difference in your chance to succeed at low skill levels doesn't really matter, because it's "free" DPS (and thus free increases to your probability of success), so there's no legitimate reason not to have them.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7718
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:54 am

A week 13 guild, never realizes that potential even when they execute flawlessly, so they often do need those extra stats.

Again, I'm not saying skill (or even execution) matters less than stats, and I've explicitly said the opposite countless times. I'm saying the reality is that less skilled guilds need those advantages more than those cutting edge guilds to compensate for their lack of skill, which is hard to improve on.

Getting better healers for instance, isn't a trivial task.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9665
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby theckhd » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:05 am

I think you have a different definition of skill than I do, then. For example, hitting the button at the right time on Ultraxion is lumped into my definition of skill. That has an inherent part (situational awareness) that may be fairly static, and only changes over long time scales. But it's also got a familiarity component. As you practice a fight more, you get used to the timings, you start to know when to expect certain events, and your muscle memory improves such that you react to them more quickly. That certainly improves fairly rapidly, even over the course of an hour or two.

I'd argue that your premise is right - that guilds who suffer with poor skill need to compensate for that with the extra stats/etc. from gear. But the conclusion I think you're drawing (correct me if this is wrong) is that as a result, those stats have as much an impact on their success rate as they do for a top-end guild. And that's where we disagree, because the effect of those stats is dwarfed by the mistakes and missteps of the raid.

IMO, the "skill" improvement you get by practicing and getting the encounter mechanics down is the factor that makes or breaks a kill for guilds at low skill levels. More gear certainly doesn't hurt, and may get you there a little sooner (by increasing the number of mistakes you can make while still killing the boss), but the effect might be a couple pulls worth of wiping out of hundreds of wipes due to mistakes.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7718
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby degre » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:41 am

Fridmarr wrote:
degre wrote:No, as stated again and again, minimal changes become less and less important the lower you go for the simple reason that difference in skill make those changes trivial.

Whereas at a top level changing all gems to epic and having that 100 strength more could give you that hairsplit difference between a wipe and success, at lower levels to see the difference you need a wider gap as more often than not what kills you is not a hairsplit but someone fuckin' up a mechanic.

Just yesterday we went to Ultraxxion again, you would think is farm content by now as we've killed him 4 times already before yesterday, still we've had a couple of wipes caused by people who can't press a button when required, and as we all know, a dead dps does no dps and I would say to lower end guilds that's a bigger difference than class balance or a few epic gems.

I'm not sure how that doesn't just exactly prove my point. Lower skilled guilds are often stressing aspects of their raids with their mistakes, as you point out. In a flawlessly executed encounter, no one has to overcome the early death of a DPSer.

Now, I say this again...I'm not saying stats matter more than skill. I'm saying stats matter more for you, than the guild that has much better execution. Skill IS the biggest difference, skill is the best way to increase your success, but skill is very hard to improve on. Execution will improve with practice, but not really beyond your skill level. Things like reaction time, situational awareness, the ability to multitask, tunnel vision, etc don't really improve much after a time. So in the absence of skill, those stats matter a lot more, and since less progressed guilds have less skill it's vital for them to find every other advantage that they can.

In a flawlessy executed encounter, if you wipe is because you lack the numbers, simple as that.

Being flawlessy executed you literally have no other way than improving the output, hence for you is vital to bring the optimal class or buy that one stupidly expensive epic gem because to you makes the only difference you can still make.

On the other hand, in bunch of second grade raiders the class is not the only solution but is only one that helps, but is not vital, and a much bigger difference than the 500k lost to a not optimal gemming, is the 5millions lost for the same dps that keep dying in the fire and you can't ress anymore because you had to ress 3 others like him already, and while dead they couldn't dps either, so bringing a better class or better gear is only one of many problems.
On EU-Kadghar: Degre | Beldegre | Degrotto | Koshien
User avatar
degre
 
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:11 pm
Location: Oxford, UK

Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:28 am

theckhd wrote:
Fenrìr wrote:But still, Theck, I wouldn't necessarily call a dot a 'joke' to a guild that has never done the fight on heroic. Not as much of a concern is a much better use of words. To those of us who have been farming the content for months now, sure, it's a joke and I've tried to suggest one tanking it; but we stick to our ways and move on about our weekend.

Even with two tanking the fight still, there are times when my healers are snoozing (or more than likely wanting to pad meters) and my health drops with 3, the occasional 4th stack. It's still a bit worrisome, especially with purple out considering we don't have a holy paladin on our roster. And our only healer that's been around since our first kill is a resto doo-dad who was sat the first couple of weeks. The other two healing slots we have...have been rotated through four times around, working on our fifth.


I stand by my original statement about your healers then. If they can't handle a DoT that ticks at maximum for 14k and boss melee attacks split between two tanks, when most guilds (and in my case our alt run) one-tank the fight and don't have tank death problems with 7+ stacks of said DoT and all of the melee attacks focused on one tank, then you need better healers.

I should add that we don't have a holy paladin either. We heal that fight with 2 resto druids and an off-spec priest or shaman.

Are you guys two-healing it or something? Because that's the only legitimate way I can think of that you'd be having trouble with tank death.



And you are, in a way, contradicting yourself. You are comparing yourself and other people who know the heroic version of this fight in an ~alt~ run that have potentially been farming this since <=5% nerf, to a guild that is just now getting to it at the 15% nerf who need to adjust to their raid comp, tank and healer set up, and adjust to the extra ooze.

You're right, I solo tank this on my alt warrior...but with people who know the mechanics and have been farming it just as long as I have been. I would not solo tank this with a group of people when this is their first time on the fight because why does the DPS matter at this point in the game? A tank death is potentially a wipe, so why risk it at this point in the game? This is why we still two tank it, and four heal Morloot. It's not because it's a problem, but why risk it when you can easily avoid it?
Image
Fenrìr
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1237
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:41 am

Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Shoju » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:34 am

Fenrìr wrote:I stand by my original statement about your healers then. If they can't handle a DoT that ticks at maximum for 14k and boss melee attacks split between two tanks, when most guilds (and in my case our alt run) one-tank the fight and don't have tank death problems with 7+ stacks of said DoT and all of the melee attacks focused on one tank, then you need better healers.

I should add that we don't have a holy paladin either. We heal that fight with 2 resto druids and an off-spec priest or shaman.

Are you guys two-healing it or something? Because that's the only legitimate way I can think of that you'd be having trouble with tank death.



And you are, in a way, contradicting yourself. You are comparing yourself and other people who know the heroic version of this fight in an ~alt~ run that have potentially been farming this since <=5% nerf, to a guild that is just now getting to it at the 15% nerf who need to adjust to their raid comp, tank and healer set up, and adjust to the extra ooze.

You're right, I solo tank this on my alt warrior...but with people who know the mechanics and have been farming it just as long as I have been. I would not solo tank this with a group of people when this is their first time on the fight because why does the DPS matter at this point in the game? A tank death is potentially a wipe, so why risk it at this point in the game? This is why we still two tank it, and four heal Morloot. It's not because it's a problem, but why risk it when you can easily avoid it?[/quote]

I can't imagine 2 tanking H:Yor and making the DPS check. My guild isn't "amazing" by any stretch of the imagination, and we aren't "terrible" either, that would put a lot of strain on the fight.

I honestly prefer to 3 heal lootchok. But then, i'm a dirty Blood DK.
User avatar
Shoju
 
Posts: 6349
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:15 am

Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:44 am

We started with 2t/2h (pally/sham), but then went to sham/doo-dad for healing.

And there you go, a blood dk who's class was solo'ing it more easily than others before any nerf. Sure, other classes were as well, just not with the ease of a Blood DK.
Image
Fenrìr
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1237
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:41 am

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest