Unsuccesful with Heroics, is it me or my healer?

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Unsuccesful with Heroics, is it me or my healer?

Postby Njorde » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:18 pm

Ok, so background story...

I look at this site almost all day at work to find tips to help me progress, which I have become a better tank bc of it.

I have done every normal instance with ease, I am currently in a guild that I created for my wife(mage) and myself to have a vault.

I dont know my exact stats off the top of my head (I am at work and cant get to my armory link) but I am 12K HP unbuffed and between 12-13k armor with 485 def. ( I will link the armory when I get home from work-Njord-Thunderhorn for the people that would like to help before I get home)
From what I have read this is a good start for doing heroics.

The problem is, we have been attempting H Slave Pens and we get past the 1st boss with ease, use CC as much as I can, since the groups hit me pretty hard.

The problem we have is on the second boss... am I taking to much dmg for him to heal it through? I know the debuff problem and I usually have helped him, using pots/healthstones/LOH/DS+RD to get the debuff off. For some reason we wipe everytime.

For the last week I thought it was me, not having enough HP, so i went from having 11.6k buffed to 12k unbuffed, which for me is a pretty big jump. I know i still need a few more pieces of gear. (Trinket in SH wont drop, cloak in SV, etc etc)

I can AOE every normal instance, I even dont take to much dmg and I PUG and all the groups love it.

Last night before the server restart we were running SV and going through it quick, the group conisited of my wife, a druid i group with a lot, the pally healer, and a pug'd shammy. The shammy sucked, didnt know when to drop tremor totem for the Sirens, after being told countless time. We got though the instance quick then the server restart gets to 8 mins left and we have 4 more pulls to boss. I pull quicker here, so we can get setup for the boss, get through all 4 pulls in 2 1/2 mins and start on boss.

Long story short(this is already long enough huh?) is that after potting/LOH, we wipe, pally has 3/4 mana still and 2 mins left till restart... not enough time to go again.

He is in my small guild, and I like him in there, but I feel like he is hampering my wife and myself's progression to bigger and better stuff.

So the question, is it me or my healer?

(have cleared H SP once with a good priest and that was before I got more health/def)
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Postby Palladia » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:38 pm

I'd say it's the healer, your stats ain't that great, but it's doable.

I know because I've done it with worse stats a long time ago.
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Postby Njorde » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:45 pm

Thanks for the quick reply. I know I need a couple more peices of gear. I have been a madman running instances like crazy, but I cant get my drops. The belt from H SP would be a great upgrade!

What would be some good stats for the lower level Heroics? I dont think I will be able to get anymore stam besides a few enchants till i get gear upgrades.
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Postby Sparti » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:50 am

Your pally was casting Flash of Light.

Simply put, this is something you need to watch as a tank and correct yourself. Treeform druids and some shamans and priests have the same problem that many paladins do, in that they read the forums or go on a few raids and get stuck in the mode of casting lightweight, wimpy heals over and over again to conserve mana. Simply put, they forget they even have big heals, and they forget all about drinking between pulls, and as a result the healing intake you get gets greatly diminished.

If you notice your healer casting flash heals, you need to tell them to cast big heals. You need to be firm about it, and you need to tell them to not worry about running out of mana, and if they refuse to cast big heals on you, then kick them out of your group. You might not make a lot of healer friends this way, but as long as they're putting out flashes in a heroic they're not going to do you much good as a healer anyway. Healers who argue with me that they should stay in treeform or should only cast chain heal don't last long in my groups, because quite simply, i don't have the time or the patience for that shit, and I certainly don't have the money for the repair bills. Inflexibility in heroics is a greater weakness than anything else, and if the big bad tier 5 druid thinks that he shouldn't have to change his playstyle when he's the only healer in the party, then he needs to take his big tree ass and get out of my freaking party.

In short, meet inflexibility with inflexibility. If they're not going to listen, give them the boot. your groups will get a lot better once you get firm about how you want to be healed.

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Postby Zeels » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:18 am

The best healer I know for heroics is Tree.
Basically he can keep me up in any
heroic staying in tree form. So don't say that treeform is
a problem. A good resto druid know his/her limits.

Also the 2nd boss in h spens is really hard
for a pally healer. No hots or group heals. Take a druid or priest
and it will be a lot easier.

Use frost aura as well.

Personally I would never do a heroic with a paladin healer who
is below +1300 healing.
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Postby Balanor » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:14 am

Palladia wrote:I'd say it's the healer, your stats ain't that great, but it's doable.

I know because I've done it with worse stats a long time ago.

Defininately the healer because I have worse stats than you but have pugged Heroic SP a couple times now and never have had an issue with that boss. Make sure the healer understands that when you get that bleed debuff, he has to use his big heals to heal you to full to remove that debuff.
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Postby mazater » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:17 am

I got kara geared 70lvl resto shaman, and I've healed a tankadin with almost full PvP gear (he only got 3 real tanking items) through Hc SP without a single wipe, and I found it pretty easy actually, just spamming Greater heals and drinking cola or something. (I got only about 1,3k +healing, nothing too great)

Blame the healer I'd say.
Oh, the paladin I healed got about 11k ub hp and 15k armor, not even specced for the 5% increased parry.

Btw, you seem to be crittable to me, thats a no no in heroics. (If you arent crittable, correct me)
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Postby Njorde » Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:06 pm

I believe that 485 def is uncrittable against a lvl 72, and 490 is for Raid bosses. Thought I have seen that around this site a few times. No worriest though, I can easily swap out a few gem sockets from +stam to + def easy enough. I still need a few upgrades and that will help on my def.

After reading the replies and doing a normal SL run last night with my healer and wiping on Murmur 3 times, then finishing that run and grabbing a whole new group with a priest healer, and pulling almost the whole first room, chain pulling the second and 3rd room. I have to say that I like to have a priest as a healer more so than a pally... The stam buff is nice, and if I get to low, the O S*^T button isnt an hour CD...
Plus HOTS.

1st SL run- 2 hours 2nd SL run- 50 mins..
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Postby Makaijin » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:33 pm

I was tanking heroic UB the other day with a Holy pally with around 1800 +healing (his FoL healed 1500 on average). We wiped twice while I was tanking the 2 giant bogs before the first boss, with him like 90% left each time. He was only using Flash of Light.

I told him to start spamming holy light, or you'll just end with wasted banked mana and huge repair bill. He listened in the end, and we ended up clearing 4 heroics in a row that day. Heck he even felt addicted to downranked HL spam by the end of it all because he saw alot more healing crits compared to FoL. I guess even healers like seeing their big numbers just as much as that dps guy other there.
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Postby Njorde » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:03 pm

Hmmm, that may be his problem, I will suggest that to him tonight when I get home, what is the most mana efficient downranked Holy Light spell?

Also would having more dodge/parry/block help instead of stamina?

Thinking about it now, for the 2nd boss in H SP, i will bleed until fully healed, so a little bit less health will allow me to get full HP quicker?
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Postby Minn » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:23 pm

Njorde wrote:Hmmm, that may be his problem, I will suggest that to him tonight when I get home, what is the most mana efficient downranked Holy Light spell?

Also would having more dodge/parry/block help instead of stamina?

Thinking about it now, for the 2nd boss in H SP, i will bleed until fully healed, so a little bit less health will allow me to get full HP quicker?

A little less health also means you get to 0 HP quicker! One thing you might try is Ironshield Potions. Hopefully a guildmate can make them for you. On boss fights and big overpulls, they can really make a difference. As far as healing, I think efficiency is a secondary concern. You really want to make sure that your incoming healing > incoming damage, to the point that your healer is seeing some overhealing (since this means the debuff is getting removed). Start with max rank HL with Blessing of Light on and work down from there.
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Postby Makaijin » Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:43 pm

As with all forms of healing, the ideal form of healing is to match HPS (healing per second) with the incoming DPS the tank is taking, all while choosing a spell with best DPM (healing per mana) for that particular HPS, and with no overhealing at all. What a long sentence. Anyways, that is the IDEAL form of healing, but it's very hard to achieve realistically. Incoming DPS is never constant, you don't have 10 million ranks to match HPS by 0.01 health, and the DPM of a particular rank of spell is hardly linear.

The next best thing to aim for is to heal with a little as overhealing as possible while maintaining as much HPM as possible. The less the overhealing, less wasted mana on overheals. You have to note that you will always get a little overhealing. If you underheal the tank will eventually die.

A Paladin I used to run with on my old server goes as far as using 6 different ranks of holy light. He does this due to the way illumination talent works and needing to keep lights grace up. He even goes as far as using a parsing addon just so he can see the current incoming DPS and spams the relevant rank of HL to keep his maximum effciency.

I dunno why i'm typing my healing philosophies when you're asking on your heroic tanking problem. I need my sleep...
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Postby Exodius » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:04 am

Njorde wrote:Hmmm, that may be his problem, I will suggest that to him tonight when I get home, what is the most mana efficient downranked Holy Light spell?

Also would having more dodge/parry/block help instead of stamina?

Thinking about it now, for the 2nd boss in H SP, i will bleed until fully healed, so a little bit less health will allow me to get full HP quicker?

It's not uncommon for healers to use a rank one, mid rank, and max ranked heal, knowing how much on average it heals and then varying the rank. Rank 1 might heal 1k of health, rank 4 = 2k, rank 9 = 4k all non crits. Something like that. You don't need every single rank tied to your action bar. :?

I personally do believe in the value of dodge/parry/block, even in heroics where you don't need to be "uncrushable". I've cleared heroics with 10k of health unbuffed but with around 40% avoidance. Now adays I run with around 13k of health but still 55-60% pure avoidance (miss, dodge, parry) in a heroic.

If your healer knows what they are doing they should be pre-casting their heals. That means casting a spell, say a rank 4 holy light, and then cancelling it in the last half second if the heal is not needed. This maximises mana returns and helps prevent overheals. If the tank has taken some damage, don't cancel the heal, if they take a lot of damage suddenly, then start spamming max ranked heals until things stabalise again.

More avoidance means in theory you could have more spikes, but in practice with prehealing it means for less overall damage and a smoother run both for the healer and tank, in my opinion.

Many tankadins hate me for constantly saying that, but that's what I say, and I keep proving people wrong with what I've done. :P

Just of course don't be silly in the pursuit of avoidance. 65% avoidance with 8k of health will just get you smashed. You need to have enough effective health to be able to handle any spikes.

More health gives the healers more time to compensate for overall damage, more avoidance gives you a chance to avoid those spikes entirely. It's a double edged sword, but I like my avoidance with a smart healer. :P

If you want to learn more about this concept, try finding articles about "effective health". There is a good one on the tankspot website. Just please read the bottom additional comments and don't become a pure stamina stacker - too much stamina won't really help you if you have too much, and I don't think every paladin tank has necessarily grasped that concept. :?
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Postby Kaory » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:34 pm

I've tanked heroic Slave pens yesterday. That was pretty easy. I was tanking 1-2 mobs at time and other ones was controlled (exept Guardians).
2nd boss was killed with no wipe and any danger of it.
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I have 11k hp unbuffed, 504 def, 64% avoidance (with block rating)
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Postby ratiken » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:35 am

I'm a tankadin. Heroic instances are all different from one another... but for some of the simpler ones such as Heroic Botanica, Mechanar, Slave Pens, Underbog, Steamvaults... there is no reason that a tankadin with the stats you described (this reply is aimed at the original poster) can't do all of these listed heroics with absolutely 0 crowd control.

Plain and simple, tankadins are equipped to handle it. It takes a bit of getting used to, but once you start to run like that, you'll never want to go back.

I regularly run with a priest who is geared for Gruul. She can keep me alive if I do Heroic Bot or SP (for example) using 0 crowd control. In Botanica, when we get to the area between the 1st and 2nd boss where the humanoids and little flowers are around the tables, I usually do 7 and 8 pulls. I'll grab every humanoid around the first table on the left, the flower, AND the Botanist/Flower patrol at the same time. I simply mark the flowers to die first, then the 2 botanists, and after that it's a DPS free for all/AoE event.

When I get to Warp Splinter, I rush ahead and AS pull the flowers on the left, run to the right, HS, pop the wings, Consecrate, turn around, and watch the AoEs rain down.

When we get to the Mender pulls at the beginning, it's a simple Line of Sight pull, skull mark the Mender, throw her a stun when you see her casting, and just eat up the 3500 nature dmg from the other 2 mobs till the DPS gets to them.

With a well geared healer, this kind of tanking is possible. As a matter of fact, for most pulls, I mark a skull and just let the DPS do whatever they want after skull dies.

My gear is better than yours atm, but I played like this with the occasional wipe when my gear pretty much matched what you have.

If you're wiping in Heroic SP and it's not on the Mind Control or fear pulls that get out of hand sometimes... without knowing your exact gear and avoidance stat balance, it appears that you plain and simply are not getting healed for enough, when you need it.

I regularly TRY heroics with a pally healer who has about 1300 bonus. It never works out well, but for me it's usually not me that dies because I get hit for too much, rather the other party members take up the paladin's healing time due to lack of a group heal, and then I get neglected for too long.

I don't know a lcear cut answer to your question... but heroic dungeons are more than just about the tank/healer. The tank, healer, and all 3 DPS must be suited to heroics because, pretty much, heroics are really hard.

They aren't hard once you learn them and outgear them... but if even 1 party member is undergeared, then a spiderweb of problems follows. You get mana issues from your casters, a priest healer will OOM, pally healers won't be able to keep you healed since they're spread too thin on other party members taking AoE dmg.

If you're using LoH in a heroic on a regular basis, that by itself is a wakeup call that you aren't getting the heals you need. If you are flirting with death at the beginning of a pull when the healer has full mana and is targetting you, they are either not casting the right rank of spell, are geared inadequately, don't know how to play, are asleep, didn't think you'd take as much spike dmg as you did, you got stunned, got bad luck with mob casts, you got poisoned and didn't self-cleanse when you had the chance, etc etc etc.

It's not clear cut, but if you want my 2 cents on top of the 2 dolla I already dished out above...

You're ready, and at least 1 party member running with you isn't.

Keep running regulars with them until they are ready. Heroics are no joke, and they are more than twice as hard as a regular.

PS when mages etc don't have to worry about CCing, they can DPS faster, this reducing the time of each pull. Try heroic bot with no CC at first, other than the Menders, and try to banish 1 of the Demons in the 4-demon pulls.

If you can't do that, nd you don't think it's you pulling wrong or facing the wrong way etc etc, take a close look at your DPS power and your healer. Give Blessing of Salv to every single DPS member regardless of whining, run Omen threat meter, salv the healer if it's a priest, self buff yourself with KINGS not sanctuary, and use the following sequence when pulling.

1 Mark a skull.
2 Mark an X if needed.
3 Don't rush forward, pull the mobs back to you. use Line of Sight if you have ranged mobs.
4 Seal up with Righteousness (SoR).
5 Pull with Avenger's Shield.
6 Immediately start backing up a few feet until you're where you want to tank them.
7 As you are backing up, activate Holy Shield.
8 Lay down a Consecration.
9 Allow the mobs to walk up to you, stay put until they're within range, you don't need to move, but angle yourself so you're facing them straight on.
10 Judge Righteousness on Skull as soon as he enters your Consecration, immediately Re-Seal Rightousness.
11 Prioritize Holy Shield OVER Consecration, and keep HS up at all times.
12 If you're taking too much dmg, you can STUN skull. If you are not taking too much, save it for if one of the mobs tries to cast a spell and interrupt it. When they're stunned you can't generate aggro by blocking them.
13 Just before the Skull dies, switch to another target (or X if you marked one) and Judge Righteousness and Re-Seal. Remember that Judgement does not trigger the Global Cooldown so you can hit both button at the same time, or make a macro for it (google search for "wowwiki macros paladin")

LMAO ok I'll just press SUBMIT now I don't even want to scroll up and see how much I just typed in here. Destructive criticism welcome.
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