Losing Free Speech?

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Re: Losing Free Speech?

Postby Kelaan » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:46 am

Not to mention that at the time of being drunk, one's judgement is often impaired: "Well, yeah, I don't want to drive drunk, but I'm not drunk right now!" or "It's only a short distance", or "It's late enough, no one else is going to be on the road." All of which are bullshit, of course.
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Re: Losing Free Speech?

Postby Brekkie » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:49 pm

http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in ... 47052.html

Arizona is trying to create a law which criminalizes internet trolling in the name of combating cyber-bullying.
Want to talk about Free Speech, stuff like this just makes Arizona look like even more of a bastion of oppressive intolerance.
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Re: Losing Free Speech?

Postby Amirya » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:05 pm

More? You mean we weren't already there anyway?

I'd probably be ok with that if it dropped the "annoying and offending" parts. But the bright side is, if it goes through, I can start pressing charges against the idiots in the state government for annoying and offending me...
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Re: Losing Free Speech?

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:31 am

It's clearly unconstitutional, without exception the right to free speech has been trumped by the non existent right to never be annoyed or offended. Then again, as President Obama said, this legislation was created by the duly elected representatives of the people, and the appointed members of the court have no right to disregard it. :roll:

Seriously though, it's terribly bad legislation. Is there a list of congressman that voted for this thing?
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Re: Losing Free Speech?

Postby Amirya » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:23 am

According to the legislative website, we'd have to call to get a voting record of a particular person.

However, the Senate amended the bill, which seems to have sent it back to the House, and now is apparently stopped at this point (most likely due to outcry).
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Re: Losing Free Speech?

Postby Brekkie » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:18 pm

Then again, as President Obama said, this legislation was created by the duly elected representatives of the people, and the appointed members of the court have no right to disregard it. :roll:

Source?
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Re: Losing Free Speech?

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:53 pm

Seriously? 

Well, I heard it on the car radio, probably NPR.  However it's front page on a few news aggegators and a quick Google search pulls about an entire first page about his comments, you can pick pretty much any source you choose.  Here's a link from CBS

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162- ... ecedented/

Obama wrote:"Ultimately I am confident that the Supreme Court will not take what would be an unprecedented, extraordinary step of overturning a law that was passed by a strong majority of a democratically elected Congress,"


Obama wrote:"I would just remind conservative commentators that for years what we have heard is the biggest problem on the bench was judicial activism or a lack of judicial restraint. That an unelected group of people would somehow overturn a duly constituted and passed law. Well, this is a good example and I am pretty confident that this court will recognize that and not take that step,"
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Re: Losing Free Speech?

Postby Brekkie » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:28 pm

Ahhhhh... he's talking about the HEALTH CARE LAW.

NOT this clearly unconstitutional free-speech-violating Arizona law. I misunderstood you to be implying he was referencing the Arizona law.

Meh, he's playing politics. I'd get into the constitutionality of the individual mandate more, but I don't have the energy to re-open the Obamacare debate right now.

To clarify, nowhere does he say the courts should NOT overturn laws which are unconstitutional. He is pointing out that the courts do NOT have the right to just overturn laws simply because they disagree with them philosophically. Which is a valid point, but naturally is being taken completely out of context to make Obama out to be the Great Satan Secret Muslim Communist Kenyan Hitler Who Wants To Destroy America, yet again.
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Re: Losing Free Speech?

Postby tinalt » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:37 pm

Brekkie wrote:Ahhhhh... he's talking about the HEALTH CARE LAW.

NOT this clearly unconstitutional free-speech-violating Arizona law. I misunderstood you to be implying he was referencing the Arizona law.

Meh, he's playing politics. I'd get into the constitutionality of the individual mandate more, but I don't have the energy to re-open the Obamacare debate right now.

To clarify, nowhere does he say the courts should NOT overturn laws which are unconstitutional. He is pointing out that the courts do NOT have the right to just overturn laws simply because they disagree with them philosophically. Which is a valid point, but naturally is being taken completely out of context to make Obama out to be the Great Satan Secret Muslim Communist Kenyan Hitler Who Wants To Destroy America, yet again.


Yeah but what do you think news organizations are going to do? be rational? of course not, it has to be blown out of proportion so they can get higher ratings. forget the fact that every US president ever has said something stupid in defense of his policy decisions.
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Re: Losing Free Speech?

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:37 pm

Brekkie wrote:Ahhhhh... he's talking about the HEALTH CARE LAW.

NOT this clearly unconstitutional free-speech-violating Arizona law. I misunderstood you to be implying he was referencing the Arizona law.

Meh, he's playing politics. I'd get into the constitutionality of the individual mandate more, but I don't have the energy to re-open the Obamacare debate right now.

To clarify, nowhere does he say the courts should NOT overturn laws which are unconstitutional. He is pointing out that the courts do NOT have the right to just overturn laws simply because they disagree with them philosophically. Which is a valid point, but naturally is being taken completely out of context to make Obama out to be the Great Satan Secret Muslim Communist Kenyan Hitler Who Wants To Destroy America, yet again.

His words are quite clear and he didn't say anything about philosophical differences. He's not being taken out of context either. And seriously the effort to make Obama out to be what you claim, pales in comparison to the effort to make him into a god.

You're right, he didn't say that the courts should not overturn laws which are unconstitutional (nor did I say that he did) but he's dangerously close to saying laws passed by congress are by definition constitutional.

I'd agree that he's merely playing politics and his comments are no different than those uttered countless times by many others, but they are equally stupid. He obviously understands the process though and believes Obamacare to be constitutional, I don't doubt that.
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Re: Losing Free Speech?

Postby Fivelives » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:05 pm

Politicians. Kick 'em all out, and elect people via landowner lottery.
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Re: Losing Free Speech?

Postby Brekkie » Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:18 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Brekkie wrote:Ahhhhh... he's talking about the HEALTH CARE LAW.

NOT this clearly unconstitutional free-speech-violating Arizona law. I misunderstood you to be implying he was referencing the Arizona law.

Meh, he's playing politics. I'd get into the constitutionality of the individual mandate more, but I don't have the energy to re-open the Obamacare debate right now.

To clarify, nowhere does he say the courts should NOT overturn laws which are unconstitutional. He is pointing out that the courts do NOT have the right to just overturn laws simply because they disagree with them philosophically. Which is a valid point, but naturally is being taken completely out of context to make Obama out to be the Great Satan Secret Muslim Communist Kenyan Hitler Who Wants To Destroy America, yet again.

His words are quite clear and he didn't say anything about philosophical differences. He's not being taken out of context either. And seriously the effort to make Obama out to be what you claim, pales in comparison to the effort to make him into a god.

You're right, he didn't say that the courts should not overturn laws which are unconstitutional (nor did I say that he did) but he's dangerously close to saying laws passed by congress are by definition constitutional.

I'd agree that he's merely playing politics and his comments are no different than those uttered countless times by many others, but they are equally stupid. He obviously understands the process though and believes Obamacare to be constitutional, I don't doubt that.


Umm.... In the very article you cited, immediately before your cherry-picked quote, you left out THIS context:

The president characterized the debate over the law as a "political" one, and said most constitutional law scholars believe the law should not be thrown out.

"That is not just my opinion, that is the opinion of a whole lot of constitutional law professors and academics and judges and lawyers who have examined this law even if they are not particularly sympathetic to this particular piece of legislation or my presidency," said Mr. Obama, himself a former constitutional law professor at the University of Chicago.


Yeah.... he's saying the USSC should do it's job and evaluate based on constitutionality, and not allow themselves to be swayed by partisanship, or allow themselves to be blinkered as to the facts due to philosophical differences.

I think you're trapping yourself with a confirmation bias here because you don't approve of the President for unrelated reasons. What he actual said is quite clear when you look at the full context, but that isn't able to make him sound Anti-American, so screw it.
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Re: Losing Free Speech?

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:25 am

Uhh in the very article I linked there is the video of his comments, nothing was taken out of context. Nothing was cherry picked, the comment you just posted doesn't apply a different context to it.

There is no context that could really fix his comments. It's neither extraordinary nor unprecedented that the supreme court would overturn a law created by an elected congress, as if we have a bunch of laws created in other ways or that that matters in the slightest. That doesn't constitute a good example of judicial activism.

I think you're the one trapping yourself in a rather obvious bias, I mean to you it mattered what the law was. If any other politician, even one I liked, made these comments I'd be saying the exact same thing, they are stupid.
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Re: Losing Free Speech?

Postby firstamendme » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:02 am

I think the discrepancy lies in your interpretations of what role the USSC should hold.

Fridmarr, you are saying that they should rule based on if they think it is a good bill rather than solely on constitutionality?
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Re: Losing Free Speech?

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:55 am

I think you're trapping yourself with a confirmation bias here because you don't approve of the President for unrelated reasons. What he actual said is quite clear when you look at the full context, but that isn't able to make him sound Anti-American, so screw it.


Things are always taken in limited context, and the President left things so ambiguous in his statement that Federal courts demanded Holder give the requried response to say 'Yes DoJ understands SC can rule on the law', it is NOT just people who disagree philosophically with Obama whi have an issue with his statement.

And yes, there MAY be people: some judges, some Constitutional scholars who believe the law is constitutional. There are ALSO those who believe differently. Citing only the former and declaring the later feel they way they do solely due to Philosophical differences is insulting.
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