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Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Toradin » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:20 pm

tlitp wrote:We're lazy bastards, matlabadin's cnv.dodge_dodge (and the parry equivalent) is level-invariant. That's because we're assuming a level-capped character.

Does anyone have the level dependent part of the formula? I guess I could reverse engineer it with the gear stats but if someone else has already done the heavy lifting it'd be nice.

Interest is two-fold:

1 ) I'm a high school teacher. I'm using this stuff in developing a lesson to intro some high school kids to the importance of math (probability and modifiers) to game programming.

2) I'm just plain having fun geeking out on the stats effects spreadsheet I'm making. :oops:
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby lythac » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:54 pm

Level dependent part of the formula can be found in Whitetooth's thread at EJ - Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm), below the first table.

Also if you hadn't seen on wowhead you can change the level part of "(2.46% @ 31)".
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby tlitp » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:07 pm

theckhd wrote:We don't have any ranged attacks in our arsenal (...)

...anymore. :P

Toradin wrote:
tlitp wrote:We're lazy bastards, matlabadin's cnv.dodge_dodge (and the parry equivalent) is level-invariant. That's because we're assuming a level-capped character.

Does anyone have the level dependent part of the formula?

Go to this SimC file, look near its end for "combat ratings etc", extract the exact values corresponding to level 60, then use Whitetooth's formula to extrapolate. Or, well, use the tables generated from DBC data directly.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby theckhd » Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:06 pm

tlitp wrote:
theckhd wrote:We don't have any ranged attacks in our arsenal (...)

...anymore. :P

No, we never did. The game treats melee and ranged attacks differently. Judgement and AS have never been "ranged" attacks in the game's language, even though I've called them that in this thread and elsewhere to distinguish them from "regular" melee attacks like CS and SotR. J and AS have always (or at least, as far back as I can remember, at least since Wrath) been coded as melee attacks that had their dodge/parry flag turned off.

If they were true ranged abilities, they would scale with ranged attack power instead of melee attack power, which you can show is not the case.

But in any event, now that they're spells in 5.0, that ambiguity has been removed.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Schroom » Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:02 pm

Just a short question, as there is a thread in our forum. "Hammer of wrath" is it Magical? Or does it have a phisical component? because following this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVrziwvprRU hammer of wrath hits though the cloak of a rogue. Should do the same to ams then. Allthough someone tested it, it didn't work, not with cloak not with ams. Any clarification would be apreciated. :)
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby theckhd » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:40 am

Hammer of Wrath is also a melee attack with the dodge/parry flag turned off. Curiously, they forgot to turn off the block flag on HoW though (AS and J cannot be blocked). I'm not sure what type of attack it is in MoP, but chances are it became a spell just like AS and J. They probably re-thought the "melee attacks with long ranges and spell damage" paradigm and decided that with spells critting at 2x and expertise affecting spell hit, it would be more logical to just make these abilities spells.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Schroom » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:35 am

so in Cata cloak is useless, whereas in MoP it should immune the rogue if I understand it right?
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Toradin » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:44 am

lythac wrote:Level dependent part of the formula can be found in Whitetooth's thread at EJ - Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm), below the first table.

Also if you hadn't seen on wowhead you can change the level part of "(2.46% @ 31)".

Thanks, I just wish I could have the formula wowhead uses to do the conversion. :D

Whitetooth's thread look like it will do the job but I'm having a tough time with one of the factors.

Please correct where I'm misinterpreting:

Combat Rating Formula

Percentage = Rating/RatingBase x H


Percentage - this is final add to the Attack Table for Avoidance (Dodge or Parry)

Rating - from the table above the formula or is that table the Rating Base? Seems like this should be the item's avoidance rating.

Rating Base - defined as the conversion at level 60 but I can't find a number anywhere labeled as such. I'm now guessing this is the table Theck referred me to?

H - makes perfect sense

Assuming a Lvl 40 character with 1 item with a dodge rating of 24, I end up with a formula that looks like:

Dodge% Gain = 24/(8.492307662963867 x ((40-8)/52))

Which calcs to 4.592391 <> 2.83 as rated in the wowhead database.

This is making me crazier!!!
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby tlitp » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:42 am

You just can't be bothered to extract those from SimC's guts, right ? :lol:

Code: Select all
dodge/parry
13.800001144409180
expertise/physical hit
9.379311561584473
spell hit
8
mastery/physical crit/spell crit
14
physical haste/spell haste
10

24 dodge @40 equals 2.826%, before DR().
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Toradin » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:39 pm

tlitp wrote:You just can't be bothered to extract those from SimC's guts, right ? :lol:


Sorry :oops:

When I saw the table, I realized there were 85 values and assumed that the modifier would be per level. In reality, the (P_Lvl - 8 )/52) does all the scaling.

Using the level 60 value solved the problem. Also made Whitetooth's notation much clearer.

Thanks for being patient and supportive.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby Myrmidon » Thu May 10, 2012 4:37 pm

Thank you so much for the CTC macro to tell me what % we are currently at. I do, however, have a question regarding that macro + raid buffs. Is there any macro or add-on that will tell you what % you need to be at, without raid buffs? So, that when you get raid buffs, you get exactly 102.4, or at least super, super close.

I was trying to write it myself, but as far as the diminishing returns from dodge & parry; I'm not familiar enough with math to calculate that myself.

The raid buffs would specifically be
Kings or MoTW - 5% strength increase -> which affects parry, affected by DR
Battle Shout or Horn of Winter - 549 strength increase, (or 603.9 with kings/motw) -> which affects parry, affected by DR
90 dodge food - 90 dodge rating increase, affected by DR?

If there is a post/website/addon/macro for this already, please excuse this post, and I'd love to see it! If it is possible to make a generic formula/macro for this, and someone on here would be willing to, "me love you long time".


Edit: Alright, sorry, I found something very similar in Advanced Theorycrafting Thread, with some long code. And, so the general idea is as long as you're close to 102.4 within 1-2% (under) with buffs, is that correct?
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby xstratax » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:50 am

Myrmidon wrote:Thank you so much for the CTC macro to tell me what % we are currently at. I do, however, have a question regarding that macro + raid buffs. Is there any macro or add-on that will tell you what % you need to be at, without raid buffs? So, that when you get raid buffs, you get exactly 102.4, or at least super, super close.

I was trying to write it myself, but as far as the diminishing returns from dodge & parry; I'm not familiar enough with math to calculate that myself.

The raid buffs would specifically be
Kings or MoTW - 5% strength increase -> which affects parry, affected by DR
Battle Shout or Horn of Winter - 549 strength increase, (or 603.9 with kings/motw) -> which affects parry, affected by DR
90 dodge food - 90 dodge rating increase, affected by DR?

If there is a post/website/addon/macro for this already, please excuse this post, and I'd love to see it! If it is possible to make a generic formula/macro for this, and someone on here would be willing to, "me love you long time".


Edit: Alright, sorry, I found something very similar in Advanced Theorycrafting Thread, with some long code. And, so the general idea is as long as you're close to 102.4 within 1-2% (under) with buffs, is that correct?


My addon, Tankforge, can also tell you your raidbuffed CTC in game, regardless of if you have the buffs active or not. Its only limiting factor is that it assumes you have all 3 of those buffs, Stam Flask, and Dodge food, anything else would invalidate the numbers it produces. If youre interested you can find it on both Curse and Wowinterface.

I should note that the change to how Block is handled in MoP means that I will not be updating the addon for MoP, it will remain as a relic of the age of CTC capping.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby benebarba » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:36 pm

Has there been any thought towards updating this primer?

I know THeck's older blog post on the new block system had a lot of the same ideas, but I'd be willing to go ahead and try to use this one as a template but updated with the 5.0 changes to the 2-roll system.
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Re: Basic Training 101: The Attack Table

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:27 am

Thought, yes. Time, no. If you have time and want to take a crack at it, be my guest. It's one of those things that I could do if I set aside a few hours to work on it, but that inevitably comes at the expense of something else that I could be spending that time on.
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