Block Changes and Diminishing Returns

Mists of Pandaria Beta discussion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Block Changes and Diminishing Returns

Postby pagezero » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:57 pm

I posted this over at Tankspot but I figured I would post it here too.

I have done some testing on the MoP beta to look at diminishing returns on Block, here is what I have found so far on my 85 Warrior:

  • Block on the Character sheet is currently bugged, when you first bring it up it shows non-DR values, doing just about anything changes the value to the DR values, for example changing stances or using Shield Block.
  • Base chance to block for at least warriors seems to have changed from 5% to 3% or Bastion of Defense only adds 13% now instead of 15%, I have not tried unspecing and looking at base block, either way as a Prot Warrior base lock is now 18% down from 20%. Edit: verified as of the 15508 (the second beta patch), base block for unspeced warrior is 3%.
  • The base 8 Mastery from specing Prot is effected by DR.
  • Whitetooth's Avoidance DR formula works for Block DR with a Cap of 135.1. The formula is:

    Code: Select all
    Block DR = 1 / (1 / 135.1 + 0.956 / Block)


    Block is based on Mastery so it turns out to be the following for Warriors:

    Code: Select all
    Block DR = 1 / (1 / 135.1 + 0.956 / (Mastery * 1.5))


    This is just Block from Mastery, to get the full Block you need to add the base 18% from above, the full Block for Warriors would be:

    Code: Select all
    Block = 3 + 15 + 1 / (1 / 135.1 + 0.956 / (Mastery * 1.5))

Currently on 4.3.3 I have 62.65% block without a range weapon because it will be gone in MoP, the bugged initial Character Sheet shows my block at 60.65% which is showing the lose of 2% base block. Once I get the sheet to update correctly or use the above forumla my Block drops to 51.54%. About a 9% drop does not seem so bad, but remember Block is now a second roll so you can not compare the 51.54% to what we see in 4.3.3, this 51.54% is your chance to block for the second roll. To try to make it clearer, lets say I have 30% Avoidance (Miss + Dodge + Parry), which is probably on the high side (more on this later), this means I have 70% to be hit or block, the 51.54% * 70% is my chance to block which comes out to 36.08%. To sum it up it turns out to be 30% Avoidance, 36.08% to block, 33.92% to be hit, and I am CTC on 4.3.3.

We will have to see how things get tuned and it could be different at level 90 and based on the encounters but as it stand right now Mastery has dropped from very strong on live to weak, maybe even below hit and exp because we need to hit now to generate rage to use abilities like Shield Block and Shield Barrier.

I recommend reading Theck's blog on Blocking, he explains the new Block changes far better than I can.

I have not looked in to it much but Dodge on the beta has dropped in half for all the tanks, Druids are dropping from 40-50% to 25%, my warrior has dropped from around 15% to 7%. All I have noticed so far is naked I am at 0% dodge instead of the base 5% in 4.3.3. Parry seems about the same as 4.3.3.
Last edited by pagezero on Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
pagezero
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:39 pm

Re: Block Changes and Diminishing Returns

Postby Dantriges » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:43 pm

The higher itemlevels in MoP will probably offset some of that reduction. I still get the feeling that they could drop avoidance stats completely and just introduce a mastery that gives DR. You more and more look like some clumsy punching bag blocking damage with your face anyways and they always fiddle quite a lot with avoidance. Be it some kind of debuff or plain lower numbers. You have to pour in ridiculous numbers of rating in your parry/dodge at the moment resulting in the feeling of "Why bother".

They are so fond of making damage predictable, tanks too, just throw the crap out if you make them weak stats anyways.
Dantriges
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:39 am

Re: Block Changes and Diminishing Returns

Postby theckhd » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:30 pm

Dodge and parry are bugged on beta (or at least, I assume they're bugged, because the mechanics are all borked). Base dodge is 0% and base parry is 10%. The dodge DR formula still works correctly (though C_p has changed from ~176 to 265), but the parry one isn't. I haven't put much time into figuring out what's wrong with the parry formula because I figure it could change once they fix whatever is bugging base dodge.

Did you check the DR formula for block at two (or more) different pre-DR block values? While it's unlikely, technically the 0.956 is a free parameter that could have changed.

Nice work. I was going to do this once I got beta access, but it still hasn't happened yet.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7953
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Block Changes and Diminishing Returns

Postby pagezero » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:39 am

I recorded my Mastery and character sheet block for 15 different values, from my full gear down to naked then started playing with Whitetooth's formula to see if I could match those values. I was having problems at first because I was assuming the base 5% block, when I change it 3% I found that Cb = 135.1 ended up matching very close. I did try changing the 0.956 when I was using 5% base block but once I change to 3% base everything worked out using 0.956.

Here are the numbers are gathered:

Code: Select all
        Rating  Mastery   Block   Calculated
Full      3663    28.43   51.54   51.54
trinket   3230    26.02   49.35   49.35
ring1     3133    25.48   48.85   48.85
ring2     2920    24.29   47.72   47.73
feet      2626    22.65   46.13   46.14
legs      2469    21.77   45.27   45.26
belt      2153    20.01   43.48   43.48
gloves    1645    17.18   40.47   40.47
shield    1401    15.81   38.96   38.96
bracers   1177    14.57   37.55   37.55
chest      834    12.65   35.31   35.31
cloak      705    11.93   34.44   34.44
shoulders  517    10.88   33.16   33.16
neck       261     9.46   31.37   31.37
helm         0     8.00   29.49   29.49


The labels are bit miss leading, it's the item I just removed, helm is really naked. I am a bit worried that three values for ring2, feet and legs are off by 0.01, I used a spreadsheet to calculate which is going to round numbers, I know a lot of values in game floor() is used or they could be using integer calculations shifted over by some number of digits.

Edit: I did a quick test, those Mastery values I got from the character sheet witch only have two digits of precision, if calculate the Mastery my self all the numbers match exactly.

I may be reading into it but I wonder if they are trying to tune end tier blocks tanks to be 33% avoidance, 33% block and 33% hits. With the recent patch I will check things out tonight to see what's up with dodge and parry and if anything is "fixed".
pagezero
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:39 pm

Re: Block Changes and Diminishing Returns

Postby Sludgehamer » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:40 pm

I wanted to take a minute to discuss the change their making to block in Mop. Now how the combat table works now is that miss, dodge, parry, block, and hit are on a table. When something melee swings at you the server will roll a dice and get a number between .01 and 100. So block cap is very easy to obtain now at the moment. Now in Mop how it works is that miss, dodge, parry, and hit are on the first combat table. The second table have full hit and block. Miss, parry, and dodge work all the same and if they are rolled the server will skip the second combat table. If hit is rolled the server will look at the second table and roll again. You have a chance to block or take a full hit. Now this makes it so you would have to have 100% block to be ctc caped. Blizzard already stated that the only situation in where you will be ctc caped is where you have 2 heavy mastery procing trinkets proc at the same time. Their also adding dr to block. At the moment block gets more valuable as the more you get of it. In Mop block will have the same value all the time. Aka it won't get worse and there is a curve. They could have fixed this with just lowering the amount of block you get and stayed on one table and the same effect would have happened. I also made a video over the block change at youtube.com/watch?v=GErnu2ZENxo

What do you guys think of the change? Do you like it, or not? I personally don't like it.
Last edited by Sludgehamer on Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Sludgehamer
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:39 am

Re: Block Changes and Diminishing Returns

Postby Xequecal » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:58 pm

Sludgehamer wrote:I wanted to take a minute to discuss the change their making to block in Mop. Now how the combat table works now is that miss, dodge, parry, block, and hit are on a table. When something melee swings at you the server will roll a dice and get a number between .01 and 102.40. So block cap is very easy to obtain now at the moment. Now in Mop how it works is that miss, dodge, parry, and hit are on the first combat table. The second table have full hit and block. Miss, parry, and dodge work all the same and if they are rolled the server will skip the second combat table. If hit is rolled the server will look at the second table and roll again. You have a chance to block or take a full hit. Now this makes it so you would have to have 102.40% block to be ctc caped. Blizzard already stated that the only situation in where you will be ctc caped is where you have 2 heavy mastery procing trinkets proc at the same time. Their also adding dr to block. At the moment block gets more valuable as the more you get of it. In Mop block will have the same value all the time. Aka it won't get worse. Blizzard stated that this will make block tanking more fun and is not meant to be a nerf to us tanks. I find it hard to see where they are coming from when they say this will be more fun because ctc caping is fun for me. I also made a video over the block change at youtube.com/watch?v=dmjqIf_BQF0

What do you guys think of the change? Do you like it, or not? I personally don't like it.


Well, from a power-level perspective, the way it works for Paladins is good. We're very close to Druids and way ahead of Warriors, not sure about DKs because it's much harder to tell just from looking at the numbers how good they actually are.

However, one thing just pisses me off about the new system: When you're tanking one mob, Mastery is near-worthless, but when you're tanking many mobs, Mastery is by far the best stat. The reason is Shield of the Righteous automatically blocks the "next attack against you." So when you're tanking just one mob, Mastery has absolutely no effect on the vast majority of hits you take because SHoR was giving you a free block anyways. However, when you're tanking 20 mobs, since SHoR only gives you one block for free, suddenly Mastery is by far the best stat because it lets you apply the +25% block amount that much more often. So you need a whole seperate set of gear for AoE tanking than you do for single-target tanking, which is ridiculous. Paladins already need three gear sets, now we need a fourth one too?
Xequecal
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:54 pm

Re: Block Changes and Diminishing Returns

Postby Fenrìr » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:28 pm

Paladins do not ~need~ three gear sets now. If you choose to play all three specs, that's your choice.

Besides, it'd be nice, in a way, to have to gear up differently again and barely have any bag space just like Vanilla/BC days, luls.
Image
Fenrìr
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1238
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:41 am

Re: Block Changes and Diminishing Returns

Postby theckhd » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:27 am

Sludgehamer wrote:Their also adding dr to block. At the moment block gets more valuable as the more you get of it. In Mop block will have the same value all the time. Aka it won't get worse and there is a curve.

This is entirely dependent on how you define "value." And by most useful definitions, it's not true.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7953
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA


Return to Mists of Pandaria Beta

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest