GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

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GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby halabar » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:06 am

So I haven't really been following prot changes, but thought this would be relevant for someone here...

First initial impressions:

Two glaring issues:

1) Crusader Strike doesn't apply the Weakened Blows debuff that Hammer of the Righteous does. It pretty much needs to so that we can use it around CC'd adds (unless they changed all AE dmg to be friendly now?). The idea of throwing it in to keep the debuff up in a single target rotation is interesting, but mostly frustrating; would require some people to make mods to more visibly keep track of when it's about to wear off or people make castsequence macros for CS/HotR. Really, they should both just do it.

2) No choices for Holy Power: Word of Glory doesn't heal for enough as protection. It also lost it's overheal bubble. It needs larger boost to be useful on self, and a smaller boost to be useful on allies. We lost inquisition as well--granted that mitigation from shield is pretty much always best, but it's really nice to have options for those times when you might have a chance to do something else: options! Taking away interesting decisions is pretty lame. (There seems to be some hidden Touched by the Light type working on attack power as the heal does go up with Vengeance)

Other thoughts:

- Basically, it feels like we lost half of our abilities. My hotkey bars are now half empty.

- Reckoning needs to be kept. Simply put, for me this is a classic class defining ability. I still mourn Redoubt (as silly as it was).

- Sacred Shield is back! YAY!

- Divine Guardian is gone. This really made me feel useful and special in raids. =(

- Righteous Defense is gone. An interesting mechanic but I can probably survive without it (5 times threat and 3 AE dmg abilities). Makes me wonder however if all the other tanks got to keep their 2 taunts.

- Mastery only being block chance still needs to be changed. It continues to be inferior to warrior mastery. Add to it a chance to self heal us on some event/ability occuring, or maybe always make it heal us on an ability and the amount increases the heal as a % of our health. It needs something to match up with critical block.

- Holy Wrath is supposed to be the new filler? even for single target (because it divides its damage up)?

- Divine Plea is gone for Prot =( we really did like that additional holy power on demand source.

- Hammer of Wrath is gone for Prot. Was this intentional? taking away interesting decisions; especially with the new awesome glyph =(


You shouldn't have to "wait to do things" much. The Protection rotation should include Avenger's Shield, Crusader Strike, Judgment, Consecration and Holy Wrath, with Shield of the Righteous and Word of Glory as finishers. You should almost always have a button to push. We don't have a problem with occasional holes in the rotation, so long as those don't occur with frustrating regularity.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby halabar » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:19 am

And of course, a warrior question gets much more input.. :roll:

Anyone else really dislike the way we tank/play right now? I don't quite know how to put it into words, but I'll try anyway.

I like a lot of the stance/rage changes that they made, but when actually tanking it feels boring and unresponsive because of the long cooldowns and lack of rage generation. (Or maybe it's just the lack of control?)

Abilities such as Shield Block and Shield Barrier did not feel worthwhile to use in the new 5 man (Library Event being the exception) and this is especially true out in the world while soloing. Instead of using our defensive abilities, I found myself dumping rage into Heroic Strike, Cleave and Execute instead most of the time. (And Thunder Clap when it randomly decides it wants to cost 20 rage instead of 0.) I'm sure this will be different for raids, but our old model felt pretty good for all occasions/scenarios.

I'm not really feeling the new spam Devastate until Shield Slam comes off cooldown with a shout every minute and maybe a leap+charge for more rage. I personally enjoyed the old spammy playstyle, but I doubt that will be coming back. The lack of being able to hit lots of buttons feels pretty boring overall.

Edit: A big issue I'm having out in the world is that Demo Shout was removed. I used to use it to gather a lot of mobs up and keep them from leashing. Thunderclap just doesn't quite have that same effect. This wouldn't really be an issue if our damage/vengeance outdoors wasn't so low.


We wanted to clarify a little the direction we are trying to go with Protection warriors and ultimately all tanks.

You generate rage through auto attacks. You also have some sources of rage more under your control, such as shouts, Charge, and in particular Shield Slam (the same is true of MS or BT if you are Arms or Fury). You no longer generate rage from taking damage, because we found that it basically meant Prot warriors always had infinite rage, so the resource wasn't relevant to gameplay. We think classes are more fun and interesting when they have to manage, even to a small extent, some resource.

For Protection, we expect you to spend most of your rage on Shield Block. Shield Block is not an emergency button. It generally won't save your life. But this is a good thing. Emergency buttons with resource costs aren't reliable. On the other hand using Shield Block (or Shield Barrier for magic damage) will make a difference over the course of a fight. It will help your healers out. It will slightly blunt spikes. Shield Block has no cool down, allowing you to use it more frequently when you have lots of rage, but also letting you play a little with when you use it. If you know a big hit is coming soon, you can delay the block for a few seconds. Otherwise, you can use it, knowing you'll have rage soon for another one.

One of the changes for old time Prot warriors is getting used to not spamming Heroic Strike. Think of HS (and Cleave) as an alternative to Shield Block for times when you don't need to worry about blocking, such as when you are soloing, off-tanking or doing easy content. If you use too many Heroic Strikes, you won't have rage for Shield Block as well. Your other attacks, Devastate, Revenge, Shield Slam and Thunder Clap, should fill in most of the holes in your rotation and should be sufficient for holding threat without HS spam.

As I mentioned recently, Prot warrior damage is probably 50% of where it needs to be. When we have that adjusted, your threat will be higher and those Shield Slam and Revenge hits in particular should feel meatier.

If you are a Guardian Druid, there are a lot of analogues. Notice what costs rage, and don't spend it on the wrong things. If you are a Prot paladin, spend your Holy Power mostly on Shield of the Righteous (in this case for damage and mitigation). If you are a Blood DK, your rotation isn't that different than it is on live.

We will ultimately balance all of the tanks around their suite of survival mechanics. Just be aware that we balance based on typical group situations and not how long a tank can go without getting a heal. If a tank can be two shot by a boss (assuming appropriate gear and skill), it's a design problem. If a tank is getting four or five shot, it's a healer problem.

P.S. Standard caveat that our design intent here is to make things more fun overall, not to nerf anybody.

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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Masanori » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:27 am

I like that he's actually responding to concerns though after such a huge hiatus on the forums. Credit where credit is due, and hopefully he takes the suggestions to heart when evaluating if the direction was correct. :)
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Lieris » Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:41 pm

I don't see the problem in having small gaps in our rotation, 3 second CS was never more than a bandaid fix. Having more HP to spend and the shorter cooldown on Consecration and Judgment will be a lot more interesting.

I do however have a big problem with our Mastery and I don't think shield tanks will be competitive especially as the expansion progresses. They need to rethink block again, what they've come up with for Mists isn't good enough.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Kerriodos » Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:50 pm

In regards to his first post, he didn't say much, but he's right. None of the gaps are the frustrating double-empty-GCDs of Cata beta. Seems reasonable to me to have the odd empty GCD.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Flex » Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:15 pm

My gaps are simply because I miss the powa cash register sound when I have 3 hopo and then it is all "lol 5 holy power"
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Fenrìr » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:16 pm

I do hope they give us back our 2nd taunt. Seems a bit....I dunno....a double standard to remove ours but let the others keep their's. It is early, I know, but still.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Worldie » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:59 pm

The thing is, they didn't remove our 2nd taunt because they didn't want us to have 2 taunts, they removed it because they removed all AoE taunts.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Fenrìr » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:04 am

Ah, I see. So no more challenging shouts/roars eh. Interesting.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Fenris » Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:58 am

Worldie wrote:The thing is, they didn't remove our 2nd taunt because they didn't want us to have 2 taunts, they removed it because they removed all AoE taunts.

Not all of them actually

=>war banner (yep,i know,cd and all that,but it's still there)
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:23 am

There's the thing, Righteous Defense was an 8 second cooldown second taunt. Other classes didn't have that, though Warriors had their Vigilance refreshing the cooldown on Taunt. Removing both of those makes sense.


Now what's left is still a bit out of balance.

Monks' 20 second cooldown AoE taunt Leer of the Ox has a big limitation in that it only works on mobs near their statue. Warriors' Mocking Banner can be positioned much more flexibly, but has a long cooldown. They're very situational, but the other classes don't have equivalents for those situations - unless you count DnD and glyphed Consecration, which can be used more freely but don't guarantee you'll get aggro.

Druids, I have no idea what they're meant to do for ranged multiple-add pickup.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Dantriges » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:29 am

They want druids to shift more between shapes. Perhaps use the old technique of the hurricane pull.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:24 am

Well, other players have mentioned in the thread the problem with our mastery and that has gone largely ignored so far. That is what bothers me.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Lieris » Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:52 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Well, other players have mentioned in the thread the problem with our mastery and that has gone largely ignored so far. That is what bothers me.


That is a complete mystery to me. We have Mastery that is so poor we'd never want to gem for it and people are mostly complaining that they sometimes have nothing to press during a GCD or that our physical damage reduction debuff now actually requires some mental bandwidth.

If the devs read the European forums I would post about it but they don't so I will just keep moaning about it on here *shrugs*. :(

FWIW I do think we should have an AOE Holy Power finisher though.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:04 pm

Lieris wrote:That is a complete mystery to me. We have Mastery that is so poor we'd never want to gem for it and people are mostly complaining that they sometimes have nothing to press during a GCD or that our physical damage reduction debuff now actually requires some mental bandwidth.

If the devs read the European forums I would post about it but they don't so I will just keep moaning about it on here *shrugs*.


Paging Dr Theck to the beta thread. Maybe you can smack some sense into that crab.
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