Mists of Pandaria

Mists of Pandaria Beta discussion

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Postby halabar » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:45 am

Worldie wrote:You are allowed to disagree with me, of course.Though, I really preferred when you could run both 10 and 25.


Only now, you'll be "forced" to run LFR, 10, and 25 every week. :wink:

Especially since every "good" raider will maximize progression by running both 10 and 25 once they are geared from LFR, to facilitate progression of the guild, after all, that is the most important thing. :wink:
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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:50 am

Mannstein wrote:What is advantage of separate lockouts?
The only advantage would be to 25men guild me thinks, or am i missing something?

Some people ran both because they wanted the extra gear drops/tokens (before caps existed). Some ran both because they liked doing them and having the extra content available even if it was the same stuff. And some ran only 25s in groups that included people who also ran 10s as their main run, and their groups ended when the lockouts got shared and those people stopped coming.

The last group's the only one that was genuinely disadvantaged by the change (beyond having less to fill time with), and they're a small minority whose problems were caused not by the lockout, but by raiding partners who left them in the lurch because of it.
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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Postby theckhd » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:08 am

Worldie wrote:In my opinion, the shared lockout system failed when LFR got introduced, it was working decently before that.

Introducing LFR on a separate lockout was pretty much the same as not having shared lockout at all, since people are forced to run both LFR and normal/hc.

Either all shared or nothing is my thought.


All shared would be fine by me too, but if the ilvl of LFR was chosen correctly (such that there's no reason to run it if you've completed HC Tier N-1) then it wouldn't be an issue in the first place.
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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Postby theckhd » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:10 am

halabar wrote:Only now, you'll be "forced" to run LFR, 10, and 25 every week. :wink:

Especially since every "good" raider will maximize progression by running both 10 and 25 once they are geared from LFR, to facilitate progression of the guild, after all, that is the most important thing. :wink:


Your snark is not appreciated. If you can't understand why a player would feel compelled to do so to facilitate progression, you're not in a very good position to criticize. Glass houses and all that.

In other words, cut it the fuck out. I don't want to see bickering about LFR in this thread.
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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Postby bldavis » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:10 am

theckhd wrote:
Worldie wrote:In my opinion, the shared lockout system failed when LFR got introduced, it was working decently before that.

Introducing LFR on a separate lockout was pretty much the same as not having shared lockout at all, since people are forced to run both LFR and normal/hc.

Either all shared or nothing is my thought.


All shared would be fine by me too, but if the ilvl of LFR was chosen correctly (such that there's no reason to run it if you've completed HC Tier N-1) then it wouldn't be an issue in the first place.

or if we just never had OP-as-all-hell 4pc bonuses that every tank HAS to get
there are times that i ponder at getting kills before my 4pc...
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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Postby Worldie » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:13 am

Pre-Cata, tier pieces used to pay the set bonus with itemization points, so the tier set pieces were weaker than same-ilvl pieces of same slots.

I don't know why they changed this with Cataclysm
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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Postby theckhd » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:14 am

bldavis wrote:All shared would be fine by me too, but if the ilvl of LFR was chosen correctly (such that there's no reason to run it if you've completed HC Tier N-1) then it wouldn't be an issue in the first place.

or if we just never had OP-as-all-hell 4pc bonuses that every tank HAS to get
there are times that i ponder at getting kills before my 4pc...[/quote]
Yeah, lots of ways to fix that particular issue. I think LFR having its own lockout is better overall, personally. But if Dragon Soul were too much longer (such that LFR took less than ~2 hours total to clear), having to run it in addition to main raid every week would get tiring pretty fast. So there really should be some way to ensure that LFR remains an interesting/fun option for those who want it without making it a chore for those who don't.
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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Postby poptart » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:25 am

Picking out some things specific to Holy:

*Blessing of Kings: Now increases intellect instead of stamina. No longer grants magical resistances. Costs 22% base mana, up from 19%.

I assume that this just means that BoK will increase “primary” stats only and not secondary stats with Stamina somehow behind classified as a ‘secondary’ stat. It will still be the “go do” blessing for Holy Paladins as 5 Mastery is pretty lack lustre when compared.

*Cleanse: Now removes all poison and disease effects. Now has an 8 sec cooldown. Costs 16% base mana, up from 14%

An 8 second CD? Ugh, I agree with the earlier poster. Sure, encounter design in Pandaclysm may allow for it but trying to run lower level content? Ugly.

*Divine Light: Now has a 2.5 sec cast time, down from 3 sec.
*Holy Light: Now has a 2.5 sec cast time, down from 3 sec. Costs 14% base mana, up from 12%
*Holy Radiance: Now costs 14% of base mana, up from 7%.


So, they are just making baseline what a current Holy talent does. Kool. No mention of a reduced cast time in Holy Radiance, however. I hope that is just an oversight.

*Improved Judgment: New. Judgment causes a secondary effect.
**Holy - Judgments of the Pure - Judgment restores mana.


Ugh, and here I was just, finally, after a year, training myself well to not waste GCD on Judging too often and it appears that they have put active Judging on CD back into the game in order to fit the Paladin “mana regen” model. I just hope that they force Shaman to cast Lightning Bolt to mana regen, Priests to cast Smite, Druids to cast Wrath and Monk to cast…..whatever they have to regen mana. I really, really, really dislike this model now that I have experienced the other more passive model to regen.

* Sanctity of Battle: Haste effects lower the cooldown and global cooldown of your Judgment, Hammer of Wrath, *Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous. Divine Storm is no longer affected.

Double Ugh. Haste has been, for a long time, the most desired secondary stat for a Holy Paladin. That was only changed in Cata with the introduction of Spirit to the Holy Paladin’s gear model. So, combine this with the above point in that for a Holy Paladin’s mana regen model to work, Blizzard has to expect that they are Judging just about as often as they can be or else those that do will be in a MUCH better mana situation than those who do not. Now that my Judgement CD will be lowered by my Haste level, I will now be Judging even more often. My bet will be is that if it retains its basic structure now, that Holy Paladin’s may get their Judgement CD down as low as 6 sec which means it will need to be hit every fourth GCD in order to max your mana returns. Heal, heal, heal, Judge. Heal, heal, heal, Judge. Triple Ugh...

*Seal of Insight: Now also increases healing done by 5%. Costs 16% base mana, up from 14%.

Meh, baked in current Prime Glyph. Kool.

*Supplication: Formerly known as Retribution talent Crusade. No longer increases the damage of your Crusader Strike, Hammer of the Righteous, and Templar's Verdict by 30%, and the damage and healing of your Holy Shock by 30%. For 15 sec after you kill an enemy that yields experience or honor, your next Flash of Light heals for an additional 300%. Holy Light is no longer affected by this ability.

Nice way to up a really big heal if a Holy Paladin can figure out how to steal a kill. Could be very power on encounter phases where there are some low health add mobs that are not expected to live long but could provide, if handled correct, an almost endless supply of “power ups” for a Holy Paladin to fuel big Flash of Lights.

*Beacon of Light: Now has a 10 sec cooldown. No longer costs mana.[/b]

Somewhat annoying on fights where the tanks have to taunt swap. Often those taunt swap “phases” are longer than 10 seconds but sometimes not. Meh, no huge change and I understand why in that they don’t want it swapped in-between EVERY cast but 10 sec seems a bit long.

*Denounce: Deals [1593 + 61% of SPH] Holy damage, down from [2664 + 61% of SPH] and prevents the target from causing a critical effect for the next 4 sec, up from 3. Costs 9% base mana, down from 20%. 1.5 sec cast time with a 30 yard range.

The new Holy nuke. With the Holy Shock glyph, Judgement and this, I hope that they are looking at making “Shockadin” viable for levelling / questing / dailies. I don’t need it to be a viable DPS spec; just one that allows me to not have to maintain a Ret set while levelling and that I only need one later on in a raid tier expansion as the need for healers decreases from 3 to 2 and they need one to go DPS.

*Devotion Aura: Grants all party and raid members within 40 yards immunity to silence and interrupt effects and reduces all fire, frost and shadow damage taken by 20% for 6 sec. Instant cast. 2 min cooldown.

The new Aura Mastery. Combines the effects of a Concentration Aura AM and a Resistance Aura AM. Not terrible. As an aside, no mention of Auras in Ret or Prot. I really hope that they have an Aura “on use” for each spec since they will no longer be passive and not just Holy.

*Tower of Radiance: No longer grants Holy Power on Holy Radiance casts.
*Holy Radiance: Now costs 14% of base mana, up from 7%.


Well, it was nice but Blizzard is apparently unhappy with the spell Holy Radiance that they gave to Holy Paladins to use. First, our Tier-13 4-piece bonus was nerfed by 75% and made VERY lackluster when compared to all the other healer’s 4-piece bonus, and now it might not be getting a shorter cast time nor is it going to generate Holy Power via Tower of Radiance.

Which in all honestly, they needed to tone it down. Sure, we are still a one-trick pony when it comes to AoE healing (minus a bit of LoD action which is still lackluster in 5 and 10 man encounters) but HR healing amounts are still pretty insane when looking at logs. However, I would have preferred for them to mess with numbers and amounts rather than play style. I really liked having the option of running “HR, HR, HR, LoD” on AoE intense phases (like black blood on Zoz) as required regardless of how big of a mana drain it was.

Overall, I will greatly dislike the mechanic if Holy Paladins have to go back to Judging every 6-8 seconds in order to maintain mana, I mildly dislike the changes to Holy Radiance and sort of like the possibilities that Supplication might deliver and the possibility of the return of the Shockadin.

But, overall, meh.

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Postby theckhd » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:38 am

poptart wrote:* Sanctity of Battle: Haste effects lower the cooldown and global cooldown of your Judgment, Hammer of Wrath, *Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous. Divine Storm is no longer affected.

Double Ugh. Haste has been, for a long time, the most desired secondary stat for a Holy Paladin. That was only changed in Cata with the introduction of Spirit to the Holy Paladin’s gear model. So, combine this with the above point in that for a Holy Paladin’s mana regen model to work, Blizzard has to expect that they are Judging just about as often as they can be or else those that do will be in a MUCH better mana situation than those who do not. Now that my Judgement CD will be lowered by my Haste level, I will now be Judging even more often. My bet will be is that if it retains its basic structure now, that Holy Paladin’s may get their Judgement CD down as low as 6 sec which means it will need to be hit every fourth GCD in order to max your mana returns. Heal, heal, heal, Judge. Heal, heal, heal, Judge. Triple Ugh...

I suspect that SoB is intended to be Ret only, and that somehow it's bugged and showing up for prot/holy. It makes even less sense for Holy to have SoB than for prot to have it. I also think you're making a lot of assumptions about Holy's mana regen model, but I'm not really qualified to comment on healing mechanics.

poptart wrote:*Supplication: Formerly known as Retribution talent Crusade. No longer increases the damage of your Crusader Strike, Hammer of the Righteous, and Templar's Verdict by 30%, and the damage and healing of your Holy Shock by 30%. For 15 sec after you kill an enemy that yields experience or honor, your next Flash of Light heals for an additional 300%. Holy Light is no longer affected by this ability.

Nice way to up a really big heal if a Holy Paladin can figure out how to steal a kill. Could be very power on encounter phases where there are some low health add mobs that are not expected to live long but could provide, if handled correct, an almost endless supply of “power ups” for a Holy Paladin to fuel big Flash of Lights.

This is just the leveling part of Crusade, to help cut down on downtime while grinding mobs. The coordination required for a Holy Paladin to intentionally make use of this in a raid would be pretty difficult, and probably not worth bothering with.

poptart wrote:*Word of Glory: Now consumes up to 3 Holy Power, down from all. Now has a 1.5 sec cooldown, down from 20.

So, no banking 5 Holy Power and then hitting back to back WoG for a couple of seconds of mana free healing. I wonder if WoG and Light of Dawn are going to share a CD?

What? They just removed the cooldown and changed the tooltip, since "all" would imply 5 instead of 3 now. You should still be able to build 5 HP and WoG-CS/HS-WoG, or even chain two WoGs in a row (for 3HP and 2HP, respectively, and separated by a GCD due to the 1.5-s cooldown).
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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Postby halabar » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:44 am

theckhd wrote:
halabar wrote:Only now, you'll be "forced" to run LFR, 10, and 25 every week. :wink:

Especially since every "good" raider will maximize progression by running both 10 and 25 once they are geared from LFR, to facilitate progression of the guild, after all, that is the most important thing. :wink:


Your snark is not appreciated. If you can't understand why a player would feel compelled to do so to facilitate progression, you're not in a very good position to criticize. Glass houses and all that.

In other words, cut it the fuck out. I don't want to see bickering about LFR in this thread.


Wasn't my intention. You misread my snarkiness.

HOWEVER, it was to point out the irony over the 10/25 shared lockout argument being somewhat similar to the LFR/Normal argument.

I can certainly understand why a player would feel compelled to run both (heck, I felt compelled to run LFR and normal).
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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Postby bldavis » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:07 am

the main difference is we are talking about 2 lockouts currently versus 3 lock outs if 10/25 are separated

as far as being compelled to run them all...
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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:09 am

poptart - I suggest you go look at the spells on Wowhead or WowDB rather than just relying on MMO-Champion's changes list. Holy Radiance is a 2.5 second cast, they just didn't list it as a change, for example.

Note that because your mana pool will never increase in size, the more spirit you get the less you'll need to use other ways to regen mana. You won't have a situation where your regen has to keep up with your mana pool.
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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Postby poptart » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:17 am

theckhd wrote:
poptart wrote:*Word of Glory: Now consumes up to 3 Holy Power, down from all. Now has a 1.5 sec cooldown, down from 20.

So, no banking 5 Holy Power and then hitting back to back WoG for a couple of seconds of mana free healing. I wonder if WoG and Light of Dawn are going to share a CD?


What? They just removed the cooldown and changed the tooltip, since "all" would imply 5 instead of 3 now. You should still be able to build 5 HP and WoG-CS/HS-WoG, or even chain two WoGs in a row (for 3HP and 2HP, respectively, and separated by a GCD due to the 1.5-s cooldown).


Yeah, that was my mistake. I initially read that as a 4.5s CD and not 1.5s CD. After I posted, I saw my mistake and deleted that paragraph but you obviously got to it before I was able to.

So, yeah, move along. Nothing to see here.

theckhd wrote:I also think you're making a lot of assumptions about Holy's mana regen model, but I'm not really qualified to comment on healing mechanics.



You are probably right that I am over reacting but Blizzard faces a double edged sword every time they make this kind of "active" mana regen mechanism.

On one hand, if they make the assumption that in order to perform their role as intended, that the mechanic has to be taken advantage of at nearly every opportunity, then you restict play style to conform to your choosen pattern (my heal, heal, heal, judge paradigm). That is fine if Blizzard wants to do it that way but I am merely protesting that is a direct 180 out from where they went in Cata and I like have gotten used to the "new" system enough that I don't want to go back to the "old" system.

If, on the other hand, they make the mana returns either small enough not to matter much or model that Paladin's will not be Judging "often" then those that do on CD gain a "mana" advantage over those that follow the model. Sure, their healing throughput "may" go down because they are casting a lesser number of heals but if those fewer heals are "more" powerful (i.e. cost more mana), then their throughput may not go down and in fact may go up and throw the model out of whack.

Again, if this is how Blizzard has decided that Holy Paladin's will have an "active" healing model, okay. If so, I just don't find it as nearly as compelling as the Shaman's use of Shock and Unleash Elements to fuel their bigger heals.

But, you are correct, I am leaping to assumptions that may well be way off base. Initial impressions and all.

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Postby poptart » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:21 am

KysenMurrin wrote: poptart - I suggest you go look at the spells on Wowhead or WowDB rather than just relying on MMO-Champion's changes list. Holy Radiance is a 2.5 second cast, they just didn't list it as a change, for example.


Excellent point and noted. I am going on incomplete information here.

KysenMurrin wrote:Note that because your mana pool will never increase in size, the more spirit you get the less you'll need to use other ways to regen mana. You won't have a situation where your regen has to keep up with your mana pool.


Until numbers are known, this may not be true. I would LOVE it if Blizzard put in different mana regen models (stack Spirit for a passive model, stack other secondary stats and do your "active" move for mana regen) and if that ends up being the case, I will love it.

But, at this point, I am not positive that I trust Blizzard enough to get the healing models as well defined as that. They pretty much failed on their "triage" model of healing (heal bars were 'rarly' below 75% for the majority of encounters in all of Cata and I almost never was running on pure fumes during progression encounters) and I am not confident that they will be able to implement any new model of healing with that fine of definition.

Anyway, if indeed they come up with a "passive" Spirit-based regen model and an "active" component for every healer, I would really like that. Just so I don't HAVE to go back to Judging every 6-8 seconds for mana.

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Postby theckhd » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:37 am

Combining Lumenactio's list with Klaud's list, it looks like base mana is exactly 20k at level 85 (it's 23,422 in Cata).
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