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Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Kelaan » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:49 am

Agreed. My rusted Ulduar drake means more to me than any other mount I've earned, and I don't even use Tyrael's Charger. (Partly because its looks annoy me? ;)) My other characters have the default birds.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:55 pm

Barathorn wrote:
halabar wrote:Frankly, everyone should be glad that they are selling those, IF it helps fund game development. (If it's not, and just going in the corporate coffers, or worse yet pulling resources from game development, then that's another story).


I would be amazed if the money went towards WOW development. I think the money has been spent or allocated for use elsewhere for at least the last expansion if not longer. It is just a case of wringing as much cash as possible from the freak of MMO world now before people lose interest. Sensible business model as far as I am concerned. Minimum input and maximum income. Not good for the consumers though. Especially those who work hard for ingame items at any level of play.

Otherwise I pretty much agree with Lieris and the items available to purchase are one of the things I know dislike most about the game. If the game was F2P and you had to buy content then ok I can understand that, but to charge extra for things when you already have to pay a monthly subscription? That reeks of wringing the cash cow for as much as possible to me.

The worse thing is that people pay it oblivious to what they are doing because having mount XXXX makes you imba.

:roll:

F2P models where the items increase your capabilities to me are much worse. I really don't care if someone is buying vanity items. To me that's no different than them buying a WoW T-Shirt.

As a society we really just need to get over the "stigma" we attach to the profit motive, of course that's so systemic at this point, there's really no chance.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Amirya » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:18 pm

I have to agree with Fridmarr on this. Can you just imagine if the game was F2P, but you had to spend non-game currency to buy abilities/armor/weapons/enhancements in order to be considered a viable raider?

The type of raider I am isn't dependent on whether I spent money to get Tyrael's Charger, and I'd really hate the model where I had to spend $25 per armor piece just to raid.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby baleogthefierce » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:32 pm

My issue with transfers still costing money is that in order to seriously raid 25-man heroic modes you have to pay the cost of a new game every time you want to tryout with a guild. That's a big part of what's killing 25-man raiding, at least on my server. It makes it difficult to recruit when there are fewer and fewer 25-man raiding guilds that are active, and no one wants to invest $50 to transfer to a dead realm where the possibility exists that they won't even pass their tryout.

I could understand the transfer fee as a way to access guild perks and culture if cross-realm raiding were possible for current tier raids, but that would introduce a whole new set of problems.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:35 pm

But that's still more convenient than creating a character from scratch.

And that's the thing, it's a matter of convenience for you.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby theckhd » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:06 pm

It's also worth noting that having a slight fee associated with transferring has a pretty important psychological effect. If you could transfer anywhere you want for free at more or less any time, you'd have people hopping servers all the time for various reasons. Some would just do it to make some gold off of economic imbalances, but others would feel free to act like an ass at will and just transfer and name change when they get a reputation.

Having a cost - any cost - associated with the feature keeps people from whimsically transferring and bogging down the system. Not to mention that it increases server stability, so that a server doesn't go from a thriving community to a wasteland overnight. (Of course, the flip side is that servers that become wastelands - like, say, Blackrock Alliance - do so slowly and then stay there).

Does it need to be as high as it is? Probably not - $5-10 per character would probably be enough, with some sort of $20-25 package deal for 5+ characters all moving together. But there really does need to be some cost involved to make the decision meaningful.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:50 pm

theckhd wrote:It's also worth noting that having a slight fee associated with transferring has a pretty important psychological effect. If you could transfer anywhere you want for free at more or less any time, you'd have people hopping servers all the time for various reasons. Some would just do it to make some gold off of economic imbalances, but others would feel free to act like an ass at will and just transfer and name change when they get a reputation.

Having a cost - any cost - associated with the feature keeps people from whimsically transferring and bogging down the system. Not to mention that it increases server stability, so that a server doesn't go from a thriving community to a wasteland overnight. (Of course, the flip side is that servers that become wastelands - like, say, Blackrock Alliance - do so slowly and then stay there).

Does it need to be as high as it is? Probably not - $5-10 per character would probably be enough, with some sort of $20-25 package deal for 5+ characters all moving together. But there really does need to be some cost involved to make the decision meaningful.


Basically what I've been trying to say.. but $5 might be too cheap.. the goblins would not see that as a barrier. (I know I wouldn't).
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Teranoid » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:50 pm

theckhd wrote:Does it need to be as high as it is? Probably not - $5-10 per character would probably be enough, with some sort of $20-25 package deal for 5+ characters all moving together. But there really does need to be some cost involved to make the decision meaningful.


Emphasis mine.

This is the only issue I have with the transfer system. I have no problem paying 25 bucks to move my main. I do however have a problem with not even saving a cent off the $150 if I want to move my 6 alts.

So what if you cut 10 bucks off 6 server xfers? You're still making a hell of a sale for what equates to a primarily automated service.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Kuripari » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:21 pm

Or, the charge just be $25, whether you move 1 or a stable. $25 would be prohibitive enough to discourage frequent pointless transfers, but if I could get a few across at once, it'd be okay. I just hate, that to get 1 toon to another server and another faction is $55. It pretty much discourages the idea that I'd look at that as an option to get a stable guild and group together again.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:36 pm

theckhd wrote:It's also worth noting that having a slight fee associated with transferring has a pretty important psychological effect. If you could transfer anywhere you want for free at more or less any time, you'd have people hopping servers all the time for various reasons. Some would just do it to make some gold off of economic imbalances, but others would feel free to act like an ass at will and just transfer and name change when they get a reputation.

Having a cost - any cost - associated with the feature keeps people from whimsically transferring and bogging down the system. Not to mention that it increases server stability, so that a server doesn't go from a thriving community to a wasteland overnight. (Of course, the flip side is that servers that become wastelands - like, say, Blackrock Alliance - do so slowly and then stay there).

Does it need to be as high as it is? Probably not - $5-10 per character would probably be enough, with some sort of $20-25 package deal for 5+ characters all moving together. But there really does need to be some cost involved to make the decision meaningful.
Yeah, absolutely agree with this. Along with death and taxes there is another rule that is equally true in my opinion. Anything that is "free" or "unlimited" will be abused.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Passionario » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:29 am

Amirya wrote:I have to agree with Fridmarr on this. Can you just imagine if the game was F2P, but you had to spend non-game currency to buy abilities/armor/weapons/enhancements in order to be considered a viable raider?


What if the game was F2P, but you had to spend non-game currency to buy access to content that grants beneficial stuff - and then acquire it via in-game efforts? For example, would you consider paying 20$ to unlock a new raid instance?
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby baleogthefierce » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:31 am

Passionario wrote:would you consider paying 20$ to unlock a new raid instance?


I feel like for a lot of players, the state of heroic raiding is already this way. Dead server? Shift schedule changed at work? Guess what, you can still find a heroic raiding guild that fits your needs, but only if you pay to transfer/faction change.

Tryout didn't work out? That's OK buddy, just pay to transfer/faction change to another server and try your luck there.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:37 am

baleogthefierce wrote:
Passionario wrote:would you consider paying 20$ to unlock a new raid instance?


I feel like for a lot of players, the state of heroic raiding is already this way. Dead server? Shift schedule changed at work? Guess what, you can still find a heroic raiding guild that fits your needs, but only if you pay to transfer/faction change.

Tryout didn't work out? That's OK buddy, just pay to transfer/faction change to another server and try your luck there.


Look, I agree its kinda expensive, but really -- how many times does the average player actually change servers? I've been in the same server since I started playing.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby baleogthefierce » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:50 am

Klaudandus wrote:
baleogthefierce wrote:
Passionario wrote:would you consider paying 20$ to unlock a new raid instance?


I feel like for a lot of players, the state of heroic raiding is already this way. Dead server? Shift schedule changed at work? Guess what, you can still find a heroic raiding guild that fits your needs, but only if you pay to transfer/faction change.

Tryout didn't work out? That's OK buddy, just pay to transfer/faction change to another server and try your luck there.


Look, I agree its kinda expensive, but really -- how many times does the average player actually change servers? I've been in the same server since I started playing.


Consider yourself incredibly lucky. In the almost 4 years I've been doing heroic/hardcore raiding, we've consistently bled off 1-2 players every single week (just happens due to IRL issues, lack of interest, all kinds of reasons). Over that time, we've tried out over 300 new people, most of which were transfers.

Once Cata launched and 10-man guilds started reducing the size of our applicant pool, it became harder and harder to replace those numbers until eventually we were forced to drop down to 10-mans thanks to a lack of recruits. On my server there are 2 25-man raiding guilds left, neither of which fits my schedule (compared with 30+ at the end of wrath). If we wanted to raid 25s again, we'd have to recruit 10-15 transfers in a week's time (impossible) or transfer off ourselves. If server transfers were not so expensive, we would not have had this problem.
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Re: Where did Cataclysm go wrong?

Postby benebarba » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:13 am

baleogthefierce wrote:Consider yourself incredibly lucky. In the almost 4 years I've been doing heroic/hardcore raiding, we've consistently bled off 1-2 players every single week (just happens due to IRL issues, lack of interest, all kinds of reasons). Over that time, we've tried out over 300 new people, most of which were transfers.

Once Cata launched and 10-man guilds started reducing the size of our applicant pool, it became harder and harder to replace those numbers until eventually we were forced to drop down to 10-mans thanks to a lack of recruits. On my server there are 2 25-man raiding guilds left, neither of which fits my schedule (compared with 30+ at the end of wrath). If we wanted to raid 25s again, we'd have to recruit 10-15 transfers in a week's time (impossible) or transfer off ourselves. If server transfers were not so expensive, we would not have had this problem.


Interesting. I really had no idea it was that common, so I imagine it would be even moreso if the barrier was lower. I bet few can take advantage of transfers to less populated realms and AFAIK, Blizz doesn't offer the opposite, since they probably want to keep realms populated rather than shutting them down and force-migrating people. I wonder how server transfers compare to faction changes. I always figured both were generally the realm of the hardcore and the extremely dissatisfied.

And while cross-realm raiding/instancing may have the potential to help, guild perks/achievements, basic organizational tools (calendars, invites, etc) not being able to be used cross realm, and the current need to share information that folks may not want to give out (RealID) has definitely limited the widespread impact.
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