[Druid] Bear Discussion

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Druid] Bear Discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:42 pm

Worldie wrote:Upgrading always the biggest upgrade (stat-wise) is generally the way to go.

this ^^

my first upgrades were cloak and ring i think

when you get to a high enough gear level, pvp gear is actually better due to extra stam/agil but you have to be pretty high gear level for that to override mastery you get from pve gear
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: [Druid] Bear Discussion

Postby Darielle » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:44 pm

Aoaga wrote:Hey BL….with Bear Tanks being the only tanking class where Mast < another stat (in our case AGI/STA for starters)….how do you trinket? STA trinkets / AGI Trinkets…..the Tol Barad one(s) are decent starter trinks for the other classes, but having all that Mastery decent? I am still using my crafted Alchy AGI or STA one in addition to Unheeded Warning which is big AGI plus AP boost. But looking to upgrade trinket(s) first with Valor points….thoughts?
Also, what piece(s) would YOU upgrade first from Valor Points if all of your current (chest/legs/hands )gear had the same iLevel?


Fluid Death is an amazing trinket for its level - and remains one of the best starter trinkets. It's certainly an upgrade over the Alchemy trinkets. UW is also not that great - but it depends what your options are. Do you find yourself in a position where you can farm Firelands, even on normal mode?

As far as which pieces you would go for from Valor, like with any class, it's a tradeoff of what you can get vs. what's the bigger upgrade to start. Obviously the Chest has the more stat points allocated so a chest upgrade is bigger, but there are no Neck options whereas you might get an LFR chest, and so on.

Bear in mind that Mastery for Bears is only inferior to Dodge - and even there many, many Bears are comfortable going for Mastery and not dodge and using the fact that fights give them the option to go into Cat to push as much throughput as possible. But basically if you go for Agi above everything, and like any tank, use trinkets situationally (e.g. Mirror for magic fights) or based on content, liek using a Stam trinket if you feel for that specific fight (e.g. madness) it's necessary and so on.

To go a bit into PvP gear, PvP gear that is one tier above (e.g. 377 PvP > 359) what you're wearing is generally an upgrade. Mew's a tool that can help you make that kind of choice since it supports a Bear sim.
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Re: [Druid] Bear Discussion

Postby Aoaga » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:40 am

Thanks for the info / advice guys. I only use the current trinks I have due to availability of them when I hit 85. Unheeded Warning isn’t even that great for kitty DPS, but its better than some green crapper fro leveling. I will probably be spending my Valor on trinkets first, due to my belief that they are the most immediate upgrade for me. I do the same for PvP gear, as the trinkets we wear for PvE have Zero Res on them so that’s a huge boost there. Good looking out on the PvP gear iLvl being important to figure into when it proves to be an upgrade. I know the helm in particular (for other classes too due to mastery) is better than 378 stuff.

I was finally able to get on Maintankadin from home and check out some of your guys armory links…very nice indeed…BL tell Amirya….great looking Moggs there….!
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Re: [Druid] Bear Discussion

Postby bldavis » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:40 pm

lol i will
glad to help

if someone gives you crap about pvp gear, just ignore them or if you are feeling nice then inform them that for bears (and bears only) pvp gear is actually better for PVE

as i have said i am working on getting the PVP neck at least (i lose alot of mastery switching rings)
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: [Druid] Bear Discussion

Postby Darielle » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:45 pm

if someone gives you crap about pvp gear, just ignore them or if you are feeling nice then inform them that for bears (and bears only) pvp gear is actually better for PVE


Telling someone that would be incredibly foolish considering the baseline atm for PvE gear is 378 from Justice Points. The PvP gear needs to be higher than the corresponding PvE gear to be even close to worth it, and even then the gain from using PvP gear is minute unless you're cutting massive swaths in upgrades.

It's potential placeholder for some slots, and that's as far as it goes. That's true for literally everyone. Even as plate tanks, you can justify using 377 pvp plate over 318 greens.

Both Cameo and 397 Choker of the Vanquished Lord are better than the 403 PvP neck (Cameo's ever so slightly worse if you never reforge away the Haste, no contest if you're reforging Haste to Mastery/Dodge as you should - Choker's flat out better even with full Haste, and in all the cases I'm assuming no reforging to Dodge involved because, well, at this point there's very little use for that anyway, but that would push the gap even further), and obtaining Cameo is lol VP.

http://code.google.com/p/mew-wow-druid-model/

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Re: [Druid] Bear Discussion

Postby bldavis » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:12 pm

im pretty sure i mentioned that it has to be the higher teir of pvp gear
and i was basing my pvp recommendations on rawr, and reforging haste/crit to dodge/mastery

mew and rawr are both good tools, pick one and go with it
edit: i use rawr just b/c i like following theroycrafting and since i have yet to find a site like MTadin for bears, i go with EJ
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: [Druid] Bear Discussion

Postby Darielle » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:18 pm

bldavis wrote:im pretty sure i mentioned that it has to be the higher teir of pvp gear
and i was basing my pvp recommendations on rawr, given reforging haste to dodge or mastery

way to read the rest of the thread /smirk


I did read the thread, my point is that it no more applies to Bears than any other class so trying to talk about it being for Bears only or even trying to justify to other people that the PvP gear is better would be wrong - and probably cause other people to flame him more.

Both Rawr and Mr. Robot (which have been mentioned throughout the thread) have poor understanding of Bears. Mew is the most comprehensive tool for Bear/Kitty use atm.
The Cameo/Choker/Gladiator's Neck comparison was for you, especially since I can note that you do have both Cameo and the Gladiator's Neck. The Gladiator's Neck is only a half-tier above, and not good enough to outdo the Cameo.

http://theincbear.com/forums/index.php
TIB is the home of Feral-ness right now.
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Re: [Druid] Bear Discussion

Postby bldavis » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:30 pm

yes mr robot is shite for bears, i saw that and have since stopped using it
if i hadnt mentioned that, im sorry my failure for not keeping this thread up to date

yes pvp gear IS viable for bears only, due to the sheer amount of stam and agil we get from the higher level gear, but this applies ONLY if you are getting the highest tiers of PVP gear (ie conquest point gear)

lets leave the pissing match out of this thread though and in PMs only
(btw, i edited my post to take out the asshole bit, can you fix your quote pls, since you were able to post within about 30 seconds of me, while i was editing mine)


edit (again):
having taken a look at mew and rawr, yes mew has a nice sim and is probably great for sims, but the thing i love about rawr is it gives you an upgrade list, and gemming/gearing suggestions

sorry but sticking with rawr, it hasnt steered me wrong, and when/if it does ill come back and admit i was wrong
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: [Druid] Bear Discussion

Postby Darielle » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:38 am

yes mr robot is shite for bears, i saw that and have since stopped using it
if i hadnt mentioned that, im sorry my failure for not keeping this thread up to date

yes pvp gear IS viable for bears only, due to the sheer amount of stam and agil we get from the higher level gear, but this applies ONLY if you are getting the highest tiers of PVP gear (ie conquest point gear)

lets leave the pissing match out of this thread though and in PMs only
(btw, i edited my post to take out the asshole bit, can you fix your quote pls, since you were able to post within about 30 seconds of me, while i was editing mine)


edit (again):
having taken a look at mew and rawr, yes mew has a nice sim and is probably great for sims, but the thing i love about rawr is it gives you an upgrade list, and gemming/gearing suggestions

sorry but sticking with rawr, it hasnt steered me wrong, and when/if it does ill come back and admit i was wrong


I'm not really interested in it as a pissing match, but if Rawr told you the 403 Gladiator's Neck is better than Cameo, it already steered you wrong to begin with *shrug*. There is no PvP gear, even from Conquest Points, worth using from a survivability standpoint, unless it's in a slot that by nature is hard to upgrade (e.g. weapon and possibly shoulders - better pieces are easily obtainable for every other slot).
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Re: [Druid] Bear Discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:50 am

can you show me where in mew it shows what gear is an upgrade, or is it like female dwarf and i have to find the gear on my own and then input it, test and find out oh i picked the wrong thing

if it is a survivability upgrade, as well as helping the boss die faster....whats the problem?
sure it might be a minor survivability upgrade, but for me at least (no access to heroic DS gear) yes it is an upgrade
those of you who are a bear in heroics, well you have better options then the conq neck
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: [Druid] Bear Discussion

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:30 am

He's saying that the 397 valor point neck is better than the 403 conq point neck. The 397 ragnaros heroic neck is better than both. There is no neck in dragon soul. There's absolutely no question that the 397 valor point neck is worth more dps than the 403 conq neck, survivability wise there's not a lot in it though Darielle says the 397 neck is still better, regardless bear tanks in dragon soul should be optimised around DPS unless they're in some weird double feral setup given the nature of the encounters. I've tanked complete normal mode (well, morchok heroic but meh) pugs dps-reforged (but mastery reforge rather than haste) with full agility gems (dps meta even) with no survivability issues, and topped dps on the one tank fights, so gearing for the tiny bit of extra stamina from the pvp neck may only possibly be worth it on a couple of heroic modes, and with the nerf in place I very much doubt it.

Except on the fights that paladins/warriors are very poorly suited to (hagara heroic) and madness heroic using a two tank strategy, but that's very rare on 10 man, I can't see the point of stam stacking at all for bears. Just stick a stamina trinket in if you desperately need more hp for an encounter.
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Re: [Druid] Bear Discussion

Postby bldavis » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:08 am

im just going to bow out of this discussion now
yeah nough said

btw, INCBear now linked in first post
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: [Druid] Bear Discussion

Postby Shoju » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:39 am

Everything that I have read has also stated that Higher ilvl PvP gear for a druid is more often than not, going to be better than the PVE gear. The reason being that bears 3 most important stats are

Armor
Stamina
Agility

And all three of them are ALMOST solely affected by the ilvl of the item.

Now, obviously, there are going to be outliers to this ideology, but on a whole, this is what has been explained to me, in what I have read about druids since I leveled mine to 85.

elitistjerks wrote:Generally speaking you want to look for the highest item level agility gear you can find. This is because armor, stamina, and for the most part agility directly correlate with item level. Agility jewelery is better than even perfectly itemized strength tanking jewelery. You'll want to reforge haste/hit/expertise to dodge, crit, or mastery if possible. Use Rawr or the spreadsheet to determine which of the three is your best bet.


Now, you could go on to say that Haste is the weakest stat for a bear, so you are going to be looking for PvP gear that is both Higher item level than your own, a piece that isn't going to be replacing a perfectly itemized Crit / Mastery piece (that you will have reforged to Dodge), but even then, as long as the PvP piece has higher ilvl, and isn't a Haste Piece, you are going to be good with using it.

It's been the standard of bear tanking for the expac.
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Re: [Druid] Bear Discussion

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:59 am

From a survivability point of view I've no idea which is better out of the 403 CP neck vs the 397 VP neck. I can well imagine that despite the higher savage defence proc rate from the VP neck, the CP neck works out better from a survival pov, though Darielle has stated otherwise. I don't think that aspect is important enough to bother testing out both situations in mew personally.

The key point, and what renders that generalisation you quoted invalid when considering the wasted resilience on pvp gear in my opinion, is that tank survival, at least for the roles that you would put a feral tank on in dragon soul heroic when you had a choice between a feral and another tank, is not particularly difficult, and that you will spend a large amount of time DPSing. E.g. on Ultraxion you'd want the feral to spend as much time in cat as possible. Even on blackhorn heroic there's decent opportunity to cat, though this is probably the fight that will test your survival the most. Morchok heroic is trival both tank survival wise and dps requirements wise. Spine heroic, you should be optimised for dps both for faster amalgamation burns and better tendon dps. Only madness heroic using two tanks (which isn't common on 10 man anyway) stamina is a major issue, but the quicker everything dies, the easier tank survival becomes just the same.

If you're in the situation where you as a bear are main tanking every fight, then possibly the 403 cp neck might be better. I'd check with mew. That's an inefficient use of tanking resources though, with the possible exception of hagara heroic, given you and the other tank have comparable gear, and from an optimal progression point of view I'd definitely use the 397 neck.
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Re: [Druid] Bear Discussion

Postby Darielle » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:23 pm

Mew just works off Stat totals. When you import your character from the armory, it just imports the haste, hit, agility, etc., of everything you have and just calculates based on that. To compare an equipped piece to a different piece (say, I have Heroic Rag neck atm and I want to compare it to Cameo), all you do is subtract/add the relevant stat (so I'd subtract 176 Mastery and add on 176 Hit, or 106 hit, 74 mastery if I was reforging to Mastery, etc.)

If you actually wind up doing the comparison, the Cameo is better for all aspects (damage reduction, spike reduction, tank dps etc.) EXCEPT "I absolutely must have this 24 Stamina" - which will never come up, not even on Heroic Madness, because once you cross the threshold for the cooldowns available, that's all. You'll never be in a situation of having to use a PvP neck because things like using a stam trinket, a few agi/stam gems instead of pure agi etc., are flat out better for that role anyway.

"Now, you could go on to say that Haste is the weakest stat for a bear, so you are going to be looking for PvP gear that is both Higher item level than your own, a piece that isn't going to be replacing a perfectly itemized Crit / Mastery piece (that you will have reforged to Dodge), but even then, as long as the PvP piece has higher ilvl, and isn't a Haste Piece, you are going to be good with using it. "
^ That's why this doesn't apply. It's a lot of clauses that wind up still being wrong in the case of 403 gear. Just put it in Mew - if it's close enough, use the more easily obtainable piece. Unless it's a weapon or Shoulder, the PvE piece is easier to obtain anyway considering what's actually available with Valor Points and LFR atm - you COULD buy stuff like 403 boots and be like "Well, this'll tide me by until I get the Valor boots or get a pair to drop in the instance", but since your benefit is miniscule (if you actually follow the numbers, that sort of upgrade barely touches your survivability/spike damage and even the fairly irrelevant measure of average dtps shifts only by maybe 100 which is beyond meaningless) - unless you're just begging for more stam urgently or replacing a 318 green with a 377 placeholder for cheap, there's no point, unless you were planning to PvP with that item anyway.
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