"Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Shoju » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:52 am

Archeth wrote:Oh also,
Shoju wrote:Don't get me wrong, even if they wont admit it, I think it's fantastic that they did legendaries that were geared towards the 2 least played classes this expac. (rogue and warlock).

Except "rogue specific" and "every caster can use it, especially OP mages" isn't really comparable for making the least popular classes a bit more popular.


You can't argue with the increase in popularity of rogues increasing. Since they announced the legendaries, the number of rogues has increased. I wish I would have kept a screenshot of the numbers. I checked the wow census data the day that the daggers were announced, and I checked them recently when talking about Troll DK's being the horde's version of the dwarf rogue, and the numbers of rogues at 85 has increased dramatically. While yes, time has lapsed, and there will always be more characters at 85 as time marches on, the rogue increase was rather impressive, something along the lines of a 20-22% increase in 85's.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Flex » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:20 am

Hokahey wrote:I dunno, I think it would be fun, but I also think it require a huge portion of developer time and attention to make it work, which may be more painful than its worth.


And falls into the exact same area that leveling dungeons fall in to, but worse. Also with their constant iteration on class design something designed for level X might not even be doable with level Y design.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Ardrhyst » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:51 am

Fridmarr wrote:The second weapon was Thunderfury which was a good weapon, I suppose maybe a bit strong, but nothing absurd. It was useful for both warrior tanks and rogues/warriors for dual wield DPS.


Just wanted to pull this out, because I think it's a little bit of an understatement to call Thunderfury a "bit strong." Thunderfury reduced the melee damage output of everything in the game by 10%. It was ridiculously powerful. In an age where tank death was a significant threat and healer mana was at a premium, there was an enormous gap between a raid that had a Thunderfury and one that didn't.

Similar reasons have been brought up before as to why there can never be a tank legendary ever again. DPS doing more DPS and healers doing some more healing is one thing that gets muddled in the mix of being just one part of a team, but tanks taking noticeably less damage is a big deal. Boss damage is either designed with it in mind or it isn't, which either way leaves one half of that group in an awkward situation.


As far as positive feedback, I'm not sure about the rogue questline and how players have reacted to it (well, apparently they're overwhelmingly positive), but I do know that my wife enjoyed the Dragonwrath questline and felt pretty satisfied upon finishing the difficult steps. It's a pretty sweet spot to have something difficult, where you die a few times but ultimately overcome adversity and succeed. This is sort of in contrast to the hunter Rhok'delar questline in Classic. People were pissed as hell about that quest because it was really, really difficult. Benediction apparently was as well, but I didn't go through that so I can't comment on it. Rhok was supremely satisfying when you completed it (and it was a big deal, too, because so many people literally couldn't complete it), but its difficulty was too exclusive to do again. The current implementation is like a diet version of that, and that's probably where it should be. I can easily see people being happy with it. Maybe even overwhelmingly so.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Zobel » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:07 am

Fridmarr wrote:In TBC there were the rogue glaives that dropped from Illidan, they were random too and also could be annoying. I don't think there was much a back story to them, but they were quality weapons. I think at that time only rogues could equip them, many thought that was to throw rogues a bone since thunderfury was used by so many warriors, despite being quite good for rogues too, but as far as I know that was just speculation.

The warglaives were rogue/warrior from the start. Later death knights were added too, but warriors could use them all along.

Ardrhyst wrote:Similar reasons have been brought up before as to why there can never be a tank legendary ever again. DPS doing more DPS and healers doing some more healing is one thing that gets muddled in the mix of being just one part of a team, but tanks taking noticeably less damage is a big deal. Boss damage is either designed with it in mind or it isn't, which either way leaves one half of that group in an awkward situation.

They could still make a tanking weapon with extra dps -- basically add normal amounts of tanking stats to a normal DPS weapon (e.g. add parry/dodge to the typical amounts of str/crit for the tier), so only tanks would want it and it wouldn't be overpowered for DPS, but it'd still provide some benefit to the raid in addition to its e-peen value.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Hawkslayer » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:33 am

I agree. I always liked the class specific quests. I did the hunter quest from MC back in vanilla on my alt hunter, and I would still say that it is the most difficult (read that as a high level of skill required) thing I have done in WoW. I struggled with it for a long time, but eventually got it a couple of months before BC hit. I truly wish there were more epic quest lines like that. And while the choice of the legendary item (the daggers) and only allowing a single class to benefit from it, was a questionable choice, from what I've heard from my raid team's rogue and others, the quest line is extremely detailed and fulfilling.

I do however really hate the collection aspect of the current legendary items (LK and Cata). I also had a TF back in vanilla on my paladin (yes, I tanked with him). We got the first binding very early on and before there was much documentation available to tell us what the binding eventually became. I spent the DKP and ended up with one of the first TF's on my server. I really liked the model they used for TF, and for Hand of Rag for that matter. The collection aspect of both was done mostly solo outside of raid instances and so you could farm/spend at your own pace.

The current model though relies on killing the same boss over and over again to get the necessary items from his dead corpse. How does that even make sense from a lore perspective? Getting a drop from a boss is okay, but assuming that he will be resurrected next week and I'll be able to kill him all over again . . . is just a retarded way of stalling the acquisition of the legendary in my opinion. In addition, this pretty much allows any raider of the proper class to get the legendary item, given enough time to collect all of the "stuff". Then of course, comes the inevitable need to balance around the item since every raiding member of the class will eventually have one.

I also really didn't like the BC model where the legendaries were just drops. Oh look, he dropped a legendary - congrats _____!!!

In my opinion, the vanilla model was closest to what I would want them to use. Rare drops required + solo farming (and then add in an interesting quest to finish the item)

Just my cent and a half . . .
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Flex » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:41 am

I'd argue that rare raid drops + farming isn't any better, and would arguably be worse, than the current system. It still relies on that "farm boss for drop," unless you get really lucky, game play mechanic and then shuns off the grind work to an aspect of the game that is not the fun part for many people.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby benebarba » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:55 am

Flex wrote:I'd argue that rare raid drops + farming isn't any better, and would arguably be worse, than the current system. It still relies on that "farm boss for drop," unless you get really lucky, game play mechanic and then shuns off the grind work to an aspect of the game that is not the fun part for many people.


Yep, cuz what this game needs is moar solo grind. ;)

I mean, sure, there'll be certain people who like it (like pretty much everything else)... but I have a hard time imagining that most folks would be logging on and thinking 'yay! more mob killin!', as opposed to '*grumble*stupid mobs not dropping my legendary stuff*grumble*'

At least with the raid grinding there are other gains (VP, gear, disenchantables, etc.) and presumably it's a part of the game you enjoy, though you may have to do it more often and have some additional logistical hurdles that may come up (end of the tier, for example).
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Mannstein » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:57 am

Zobel wrote:
Ardrhyst wrote:Similar reasons have been brought up before as to why there can never be a tank legendary ever again. DPS doing more DPS and healers doing some more healing is one thing that gets muddled in the mix of being just one part of a team, but tanks taking noticeably less damage is a big deal. Boss damage is either designed with it in mind or it isn't, which either way leaves one half of that group in an awkward situation.

They could still make a tanking weapon with extra dps -- basically add normal amounts of tanking stats to a normal DPS weapon (e.g. add parry/dodge to the typical amounts of str/crit for the tier), so only tanks would want it and it wouldn't be overpowered for DPS, but it'd still provide some benefit to the raid in addition to its e-peen value.


Option A) Everytime you dodge, Raid does X%more heal or damage for X seconds
Option B) Avenger - On use, increase damage done by you in 25%, increase size (personaly a Dark/Bright shinning would be a plus)
Option C)...
What i want to say is simple, the "tank cannot have a Legendary" is BS.
A 1hd sword that can be right clicked to become a 2handed polearm would be enough for the 4 tanking classes.
You could put buffs that help the raid and not impacte tanking...
From my pov the only reason for not having a tanking Legendary, is simple:
"Blizz" don't want it.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Brekkie » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:06 am

Ardrhyst wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:The second weapon was Thunderfury which was a good weapon, I suppose maybe a bit strong, but nothing absurd. It was useful for both warrior tanks and rogues/warriors for dual wield DPS.


Just wanted to pull this out, because I think it's a little bit of an understatement to call Thunderfury a "bit strong." Thunderfury reduced the melee damage output of everything in the game by 10%. It was ridiculously powerful. In an age where tank death was a significant threat and healer mana was at a premium, there was an enormous gap between a raid that had a Thunderfury and one that didn't.

Similar reasons have been brought up before as to why there can never be a tank legendary ever again. DPS doing more DPS and healers doing some more healing is one thing that gets muddled in the mix of being just one part of a team, but tanks taking noticeably less damage is a big deal. Boss damage is either designed with it in mind or it isn't, which either way leaves one half of that group in an awkward situation.


As far as positive feedback, I'm not sure about the rogue questline and how players have reacted to it (well, apparently they're overwhelmingly positive), but I do know that my wife enjoyed the Dragonwrath questline and felt pretty satisfied upon finishing the difficult steps. It's a pretty sweet spot to have something difficult, where you die a few times but ultimately overcome adversity and succeed. This is sort of in contrast to the hunter Rhok'delar questline in Classic. People were pissed as hell about that quest because it was really, really difficult. Benediction apparently was as well, but I didn't go through that so I can't comment on it. Rhok was supremely satisfying when you completed it (and it was a big deal, too, because so many people literally couldn't complete it), but its difficulty was too exclusive to do again. The current implementation is like a diet version of that, and that's probably where it should be. I can easily see people being happy with it. Maybe even overwhelmingly so.


Additionally, the TF proc was a HUGE aoe threat burst, in an era where DPS was threat-capped and AOE tanking extremely difficult.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:15 am

Ardrhyst wrote:This is sort of in contrast to the hunter Rhok'delar questline in Classic. People were pissed as hell about that quest because it was really, really difficult. Benediction apparently was as well, but I didn't go through that so I can't comment on it. Rhok was supremely satisfying when you completed it (and it was a big deal, too, because so many people literally couldn't complete it), but its difficulty was too exclusive to do again. The current implementation is like a diet version of that, and that's probably where it should be. I can easily see people being happy with it. Maybe even overwhelmingly so.


The Rhok quests were incredibly awesome at gear level. They were the sort of quests that would've worked well for a legendary chain. They were difficult, for sure, and sometimes buggy as hell (Winterspring one was /wrist-inducing sometimes, because the demon liked to bug out based on terrain/pathing issues). But boy were they exciting to complete.

What utterly failed about the Rhok questline was that it was open-world, and that you had to camp the demons for hours until they spawned. "Log on and wait" is not compelling gameplay. Having PvP interference on what is essentially a PvE test of skill isn't that much fun either. Put those quests in instances (or your own phase, perhaps), and they're a perfect example of how a class-specific legendary quest line should work.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Firas » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:30 pm

"Having PvP interference on what is essentially a PvE test of skill isn't that much fun either."

That's really how I saw that fight. Moving out of things and interrupting an ability is not a challenging concept, however having to juggle combo points into different abilities outside of a normal rotation, while trying to stun lock and blind recup the boss? Got a little to much pvp for me.

Also didn't they say something about the mechanics behind making a tank weapon were not simple or something? I remember they said something because my first though was Aetish where there was various different staffs for each class, then I thought about the shadow strike from MC. It's a simple lack of wanting to give tanks the legendary, but they're okay with giving ONE class legendarys for a expansions final raid.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby halabar » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:37 pm

benebarba wrote:
Flex wrote:I'd argue that rare raid drops + farming isn't any better, and would arguably be worse, than the current system. It still relies on that "farm boss for drop," unless you get really lucky, game play mechanic and then shuns off the grind work to an aspect of the game that is not the fun part for many people.


Yep, cuz what this game needs is moar solo grind. ;)

I mean, sure, there'll be certain people who like it (like pretty much everything else)... but I have a hard time imagining that most folks would be logging on and thinking 'yay! more mob killin!', as opposed to '*grumble*stupid mobs not dropping my legendary stuff*grumble*'


The current legendary processes would be fine if you took the raid-drop grinding and reduced it by 75%, and replace it with some solo work that would take a month or two to complete (not actual playtime, but calendar time).

Legendaries shouldn't be just about raid attendance, which is what they are right now.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Hawkslayer » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:46 pm

To my mind, grinding is grinding - whether it be solo-grinding or killing Shannox for the 85th time. At this point, I get nothing worthwhile out of killing Shannox again. My wife (a S-priest) just finished her staff. We had several delays due to our original raid group migrating to Star Wars, but she eventually finished it. My point though (and maybe I'm alone here) is that she or I would much rather have had to grind it solo these past few months rather than trying to pull together a raid team that gets basically nothing from Firelands, other than helping her and in turn helping our raid group's DPS.

Perhaps there is a difference between raid-grinding when it is relevant and raid-grinding after that point. When everyone has interest and gains something from doing Firelands, it isn't a big deal, but afterwards it's like pulling teeth sometimes.

I still hold to my lore point though about it not making any sense from a quest perspective to have to kill a boss over and over again to complete the legendary item.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby halabar » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:52 pm

Hawkslayer wrote:I still hold to my lore point though about it not making any sense from a quest perspective to have to kill a boss over and over again to complete the legendary item.


Agreed.

Cut the grind by 75%, add some more solo work that's calendar based, and you're done.

As I said, legendaries shouldn't just be about raid attendance, but we don't want people getting them in the first 3 days of a patch release.

Perhaps add a quest that requires DMF twice. The difficulty of the rogue solo quests is probably about right.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Archeth » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:03 pm

The worst part was that it was more than PvP interference - the demons reset/despawned (don't remember) simply from having someone else help, which was greatly exploitable by even people of your own faction trying to "help" or grief, and you were back to sitting around twiddling thumbs while waiting for respawns.

Shoju wrote:You can't argue with the increase in popularity of rogues increasing. Since they announced the legendaries, the number of rogues has increased. I wish I would have kept a screenshot of the numbers. I checked the wow census data the day that the daggers were announced, and I checked them recently when talking about Troll DK's being the horde's version of the dwarf rogue, and the numbers of rogues at 85 has increased dramatically. While yes, time has lapsed, and there will always be more characters at 85 as time marches on, the rogue increase was rather impressive, something along the lines of a 20-22% increase in 85's.

It's good then that I wasn't arguing that but the other part of your equation. Class specific is one thing, but dragonwrath can't have had any noticeably effect on warlock popularity with 5 other (better, easier, or both) classes/specs available to do the quest with.

I'd also like to comment on Ardrhyst's point that "DPS doing more DPS and healers doing some more healing is one thing that gets muddled in the mix of being just one part of a team" - the current legendary design is still unbalanced at a certain level (and that's not just the top-100 guilds) because what gets muddled in a normal guild gets seriously out of whack if you make an all-legendary raid team and mostly exclude (or don't actively recruit) people without legendaries. They're supposed to be a guild effort but just promote what people did with raiding in TBC - getting their "rare" shinies, then bailing for greener pastures. Sure having a "survivability" legendary would have an effect sooner, but DPS/healer legendaries are still a balancing issue and as a whole a poor excuse to deny tanks a legendary or otherwise powerful class item.
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