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[10H] Ultraxion

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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Schroom » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:46 am

well yeah that's exactly our tactics, as one tank is 2nd in threat he doesn't need to taunt when the other pushes the button.
so tank 1 starts the fight and stays during the first HoT. when the 2nd tank comes back he taunts and takes 2 fading lights and stays during the 2nd fading light. Then when the 1st tank comes back he taunts again. and so on.

the reason behind this , is to avoid unnecessary taunts, make the fight overall smoother for the tanks, and letting the staying tank take the second fading lights, avoids the risk of the button being on Cooldown when inf act he should push it. (we had several times when we started on that Boss that the Button was on cooldown because the debuff was running for 10 seconds tank pushed at 3, came back, HoT was cast was being cast already at that moment, button was still on a 5 second cooldown, tank died.)

also I always check in my skada-threat if everything works out. and the druids weren't even 3rd. in fact they were far behind on the aggro table. place 3 was the Hunter if I remember correctly.

"DK death grips Ultraxion for some reason", I think i remember that in fact I pulled aggro by dps'ing I guess and he had to re-taunt, either that or it was because our DK tank is rather new and it was the first time he played this with our group and was maybe a bit unsecure. The random hits, nonetheless, we noticed them in other trys too, with a different tank.

I really don't see any logical explanation no taunts or to many taunts how someone who is at the bottom of the aggro table can be randomly hit by the Boss. Except for a serverlag or something liek that, during "Twilight shift".

Most tries go pretty well tho. ;-)

PS: I am usually the logger.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:15 am

Schroom wrote:the reason behind this , is to avoid unnecessary taunts, make the fight overall smoother for the tanks, and letting the staying tank take the second fading lights, avoids the risk of the button being on Cooldown when inf act he should push it. (we had several times when we started on that Boss that the Button was on cooldown because the debuff was running for 10 seconds tank pushed at 3, came back, HoT was cast was being cast already at that moment, button was still on a 5 second cooldown, tank died.)


Heroic will has a 5 second cooldown, and Hour of Twilight has a 5 second cast on normal, 3 second on heroic. You can get a fading light expiring close to when hour of twilight is cast, but it's never so close that you can't make it back by spamming the button. On normal if you hit heroic will just before hour of twilight starts casting you can spam it and still hit it again before hour of twilight cast finishes, so really this isn't an issue.

I'd suggest that the way you're doing this is causing it to bug out somehow. I don't really see how doing it this way makes the fight any easier either, so I'd suggest switching to the more conventional way of doing things. I've done maybe 200 pulls of this boss on heroic with three different raid groups using the conventional tank B taunting as soon as tank A gets debuff and vice-versa and never seen the issue you're describing. Additionally on heroic after coming back into phase you get a debuff that increases the physical damage you take by 100% for 4-5 seconds, so immediately re-taunting the boss to get the next fading light is going to mean you're taking a lot more damage.

Edit: actually now that I think about it, I don't taunt as soon as the other tank has the debuff, but just before he phases. This means on the rare situation where my fading light expires really late, and the following fading light on him is a really early one, my 100% damage taken debuff has time to fall off before I taunt the boss back. Very occasionally the timings will line up in such a way that you will end up taking one melee swing while still having the damage taken debuff though.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Cowmmunion » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:02 am

I've noticed that sometimes on normal Ultrax, after an hour of twilight the boss starts hitting some random DPS. I take every hour of twilight on normal, and keep on whacking away at the boss, but every once in a while he'll somehow pull off me immediately after the DPS zone back in. I don't have a log that shows this happening (although I'm sure it's buried somewhere in my logs) but simply another anecdotal (and thus almost entirely useless) anecdote.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:11 am

On Normal mode it IS possible to get hosed on Fading/Hour, but only if the Fading Light tank waits until the last second to hit Heroic Will, so that you re-phase just as hour starts getting cast and find it on CD. If you are taking the second Fading and phase at 4 secs, then you will automatically have it off CD for the following hour. I expect that for Heroic, it is the same thing, that the tank (and dps) eating the Fading Twilight just before a Hour, need to hit it at like 3-4 secs left on debuff to be certain it is available for the Hour.

I think having one tank eat two Fading Twilights is not a big deal, but you should still taunt as soon as the Fading Twilight buff gets applied so as to avoid missing a taunt prior to the other tank going out, and thereby losing that threat. Keep in mind, Fading Twilight also imoses a threat debuff to the target: loss of accumulated threat and inability to generate new threat for 10 secs. Tanks must be carefull in managing this threat loss.

You don't want to be in the situation where a tank loses all his threat to Fading Twilight and suddenly the dps are nipping at the heels of the remaining tank. Whichever tank gets the boss first will have tons of Vengeance, so the other tank without Vengeance probably won't have much of a threat lead over the top dps. Poor tank changes can evaporate that threat lead and leave the dps vulnerable, when there is no need to take such a risk. Taunting at Fading Twilight applciation, can preserve the original threat lead, and if you want to eat two Fading Twilights, you can just spam taunt as you re-phase.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Schroom » Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:39 pm

ok well I guess we will taunt in the future than, as soon as the debuff is applied.

I rewatched a video I took last time and noticed that even after the tank disapears he still stays on top of the threatchard for about 1-2 seconds.
So my guess is that if the Boss meleeswings during that exact moment, and can't find the character in question (as he just zoned out) he jsut randomly hits someone, completely ignoring the aggro table, and attacks the taget he should be attacking (former position 2 on the chart) only after the chart switches.

hope I could explain this somehow understandably.
I guess the Boss would do the same thing if the top Threatholder would just run out of melee range, as the Boss is static (same thing could be seen with ragnaros when a tank moved out of melee range).

well thanks for the advices. This will help me rework our taunting strategie, looking forward on HM Ultra tomorrow.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Schroom » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:44 am

just a short follow up. it worked pretty well to only taunt when the other tank gets the debuff on HM. And in the 2nd ID we killed Ultra yesterday. (even tho it was a tough struggle and me being the sole survivor at the end \o/)
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Grommash » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:33 am

Yeah one thing you don't want to do when you aren't soaking hour of twilight is to cut the set of fading lights before it too close. I believe there are a 3 sets of fading lights between each hour?

Anyways I'll cut the first one to 1 second left and because I tank I can't get the second set anyways. The third set however you should ALWAYS press it 3-4 seconds left on the debuff. Obviously this isn't necessary if you get the really short one (a 4 second application as opposed to 8 seconds) but I'd do it just because. It's important because if you get the long one and cut it to 1 second to maximize DPS it's highly likely that your button won't be available for hour, probably causing a wipe.

It's good practice on first kills for everyone to cut fading light to one second except the third set, as opposed to taking it safe and always doing it at 3-4. If you add up the lost DPS time of 3 people not DPSing for 2-3 seconds every set of fadings it can easily account for a considerable amount of DPS over the length of the encounter.

I tank first, get the first fading and click my button at 1 second. Feral picks it up as soon as I get fading, and when I get back I taunt off a second before my debuff falls off. Always worked for us without a hitch.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Hrobertgar » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:01 pm

We had some kind of wierd 'bug' last night. Our tanks have been suffering a little from the criatble bug so we had them both switch to offspec and then back again to reset. Yet our Warrior tank was getting abused by Ultrax right off the bat. On the first pull he dies like 30 secs in (prior to first Hour, let alone Fading) from full to dead in like 0.3 secs or something without being crit.

I started bub-sac on pull to help, hopefully the additional nerf next week will also eliminate this issue, as I do not recall it happening in our kill last week.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Ocin » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:33 pm

My DPS are struggling a bit with this fight and I'm trying to go through WoLs one-by-one. Our shadow priest seems like she should be having more of her damage going to Mind Blasts (based on other logs), but I'm not sure if that's happening because she's waiting for 3 orbs to come up or not. Would her DPS go up if she had to clip orbs around Hour of Twilights?

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-n ... 775&e=6138
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:37 pm

I thought you cast mind blast regardless of how many orbs are up?
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Ocin » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:01 pm

Nikachelle wrote:I thought you cast mind blast regardless of how many orbs are up?


If that's true, then she needs to change her rotation. Thanks+
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Cowmmunion » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:33 pm

I don't know much about DPS, but I can tell you that both of the tanks are underpreforming pretty hard. Neither tank is potting, neither tank is using inquisition. You aren't using timewarp at the start of the fight to maximize DPS - timewarp at the start with the healers outside of the twilight realm, and then timewarp again at the 5 minute mark when it comes off cooldowns for the healers. Scrabbled popped his wings once - you never used them at all. There should be time for 3 wings in this fight.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Ocin » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:15 pm

Cowmmunion wrote:I don't know much about DPS, but I can tell you that both of the tanks are underpreforming pretty hard. Neither tank is potting, neither tank is using inquisition. You aren't using timewarp at the start of the fight to maximize DPS - timewarp at the start with the healers outside of the twilight realm, and then timewarp again at the 5 minute mark when it comes off cooldowns for the healers.


Not sure why wings aren't showing (had them up a second before boss was targetable?), We didn't pull without them and I'm 90% sure I pre-potted on all attempts (I may have slacked towards the end of our 16 attempts). Inq. could be up more, but I'm not sure it would add more to overall tank DPS than say 1k DPS tops. Tank DPS should be higher overall, but it's not going to close the gap on this fight for us like improving a few DPSers by 5-10k

Cowmmunion wrote:You aren't using timewarp at the start of the fight to maximize DPS - timewarp at the start with the healers outside of the twilight realm, and then timewarp again at the 5 minute mark when it comes off cooldowns for the healers.


We started moving Hero/Timewarp to our attempts to the start of the fight by the end of the night. We'll be doing that again tonight.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:43 pm

19k isn't that bad for tanks that aren't using at least 2 piece t12 or dps trinkets etc actually. And Ultraxion logs are very buggy as far as showing buff gains and fades due to the phasing. Ofc you can gear differently (and if that's the fight you're struggling with, you probably should), but that aside, you are correct that your dps are woefully underperforming. You clearly are pre-potting if one searches the whole log for Golemblood usage.

It's not a fire mage, but my own 399 ilevel legendary caster (warlock) easily breaks 40k dps (usually around 42k dps, up to 44k on a good day), albeit in a kill that's about a minute faster, with what that means as far as higher % cd uptime. In a 6 min kill it'd still be 38k+ comfortably. Invis typically does about 36-40k as fire mage with similar ilevel to your mage. Don't know enough about current mages to analyse his performance properly, I'd suggest he macro fireblast into heroic will to squeeze use out of that extra gcd but that'll be a miniscule improvement overall.

Feral #1 (Kuronir) doing ok, probably doing the best relative to his gear of your dps. He's got a fair bit of wasted itemisation by being 0.43% over hit cap though, he should run through wowreforge and double check his reforge.

Feral #2 is ok on some tries, not on others. His gear setup is absurdly unoptimised - 38 expertise? Don't know if he tanks usually, his specs don't suggest so, but stamina leg patch and gem suggest otherwise. However, 40 crit gems are inexcusable. He'd gain at least 500-1k dps by optimising his gear properly, let alone anything else.

As a raid you are standing in the wrong place on most of your pulls, as on the vast majority of pulls your arms warrior's gurthalak isn't proccing. On average gurth represents about 9% of my arms warrior's damage on Ultraxion, and discounting tricks, I did about 41k dps with 394 ilevel last time I killed him. So Gurth is worth roughly 3.5k extra raid dps for me. You need to stand between the two lines closest to the boss for the tentacles to reliably spawn and attack the boss. Beyond that, his heroic strike usage is absurdly low - that fight is made for heroic strike spam with the ridiculous rage you get from environmental damage, and he is not using Inner Rage at all (point him at what his two piece t13 does >_<). A mitigating factor is that for most of the tries you're lacking the 10% melee haste buff, which is pretty unfortunate. Though when you get it his HS #s don't improve (should be roughly 8-10% of total damage, not 3%).

Fairly disturbingly he only seemed to remember about the existence of Deadly Calm in the last few pulls, which also contributes to his low heroic strike numbers. Remind him he should be saving his third deadly calm until execute range and using deadly calm into recklessness with pot active once he's in execute range. His rotation is a bit sloppy in general as well, there's no way that he should be casting more slams than mortal strikes, but he is, which means he's delaying mortal strike, which in turn means lower enrage and colossus smash uptime. In a properly executed rotation on Ultraxion MS should comfortably be #1 damage source followed by Overpower, with Slam, heroic strike, mastery procs and deep wounds all floating around fairly equal a few % below that. Slightly unoptimised gear but nothing major. Pretty lazy with potting. He should also be squeezing in heroic leap on cooldown (or rather, when it's off cooldown and colossus smash is up), because it's off GCD and doesn't reset swing timer, and Ultraxion's hitbox is huge so it's just free damage as he never has to break his rotation, but that's a really minor gain.

Your warlock is 3.24% over hit cap. A few holes in DoT uptime, but again with the phasing I wouldn't be certain about that, though debuffs on Ultraxion tend to show up more reliably in logs than buffs on players. Lock's lazy with potting, using a lot fewer than your other two casters overall. I'm really hoping it's just combat log bug, but some tries it appears he doesn't apply curse of elements. It definitely falls off on this try at least.

Your spriest isn't using the sfiend -> mind spike/blast burn rotation that comes from 4 piece - it's certainly a gain from the pull at least. Refer to this post onwards. Meh just reading that thread from page 3 onwards might give some ideas for improving SP dps on Ultraxion really.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Epimer » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:35 am

Most minor of DPS gains here, but it looks like both tanks are doing AS+ > CS rather than the other way around.

I'm not up to date on what the DPS differential there is (and I could be outright wrong!), but every little counts...
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