Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:21 am

tlitp wrote:Theck will provide some numbers later on.

A generous statement, given that you did all the work. :P

In any event, the weapon sim is updated. No'Kaled beats out Souldrinker by around 100 DPS now. I've also taken out all the 346 weapons, since they aren't relevant to anyone anymore.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:27 am

This is only in regards to tankadin dps?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:07 am

Skye1013 wrote:This is only in regards to tankadin dps?

Not sure what you mean. For raw DPS, No'Kaled is ahead. You may choose to forgo that extra 100 DPS for the extra survivability of the Souldrinker proc (~1k HPS), seeing as it's a fairly efficient DPS->HPS trade.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:23 am

I imagine he's asking whether this would be applicable to other classes. Given the matlab sim deals only with protection paladin you can't really draw any conclusions from it, however I've read speculation elsewhere that it may be BiS for SMF and DW frost as well.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:36 am

Ah, yes. This is really only applicable to prot paladins. The mechanics of different classes differ enough that it's not safe to draw any conclusions about them based on these results.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:46 am

The current modeling shows NK to be ahead of SD for both DW Frost and SMF Fury. As far as Prot Warriors are concerned, I've got no clue. It's probably safe to say that an ilvl-equivalent NK is at least as good as a SD, no matter the class/spec.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Brosterr » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:09 pm

I probably missed this somewhere but gonna ask anyways: For pure dps, stats aside, would you use 2pc t13 ret with 2pc t12 prot/ 2pc t12 prot with 2pc t12 ret/ or 2pc t12 ret and 2pc t12 ret?

(by stats aside i mean assume a set with 8% and 56 exp)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:16 pm

2pc T13 ret becomes worse and worse as you approach 8/56, so if you've hit hard caps you're better off with the T12 bonuses.

I have 2pc T12 Prot/2pc T12 Ret in my current high-dps loadout, which is at 8.08% hit, 53 xpt, and 99.23 tCTC unbuffed. Of course it pays the price in stam, at only 178.6k unbuffed.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Brosterr » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:30 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:2pc T13 ret becomes worse and worse as you approach 8/56, so if you've hit hard caps you're better off with the T12 bonuses.

I have 2pc T12 Prot/2pc T12 Ret in my current high-dps loadout, which is at 7.6% hit, 51 xpt, and 96.6 tCTC unbuffed.


I have read the MATLAB, im aware of what you said. That is not the answer i was looking for. I also see nothing backing up what you are saying, so i will wait on theck to answer hopefully.

Also, it should have been assumed, but i am talking full heroic, meaning the str should be factored in for 19 ilvls. What i am thinking is with 2pc prot and 2 pc t13 ret, more SoTR (from 2pct13ret, which i know its not a ton) plus the bonus it gets from protT12 might put it well over.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:36 pm

This post should have all the data you're looking for. You'll have to add up the STR loss in going from your T13 setup to your T12 setup, but at 1.8 dps per point of strength, you'd need to be losing nearly 1000 strength for T13 to catch up.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Brosterr » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:08 pm

haha, one page back.... sorry. Thanks though, answers my question.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:05 am

tlitp wrote:The current modeling shows NK to be ahead of SD for both DW Frost and SMF Fury. As far as Prot Warriors are concerned, I've got no clue. It's probably safe to say that an ilvl-equivalent NK is at least as good as a SD, no matter the class/spec.

That is basically what I was getting at. I didn't want to look completely retarded rolling on them in LFR (assuming DKs can?) if they were worse for dps.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:52 am

LFR version is rogue/shaman only so you're out of luck there.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:38 am

Going to be posting this in the gear forum shortly, though it may warrant its own post on the first page. I've been meaning to work out the relative efficiencies of different gem conversions, and this morning I finally got around to it. I figured that it warranted its own MATLAB file for two reasons: 1) It's faster than doing it by hand every few months, 2) I can get a more accurate CTC comparison from MATLAB than I can by just assuming 1 mastery = 3 dodge or parry.

The file is calc_gem_trades.m in the repository if anyone's interested in seeing the source.

The results are a little surprising, even to me. I hadn't guessed that foregoing a 30 parry bonus on the chest/legs would be more efficient than converting Puissants to solids in blue slots. But mathematically it makes sense: 50 parry for 30 stam gives up less CTC than 20 mastery for 30 stam does. The mastery:avoidance CTC ratio in this gear set (T13N) is 3.28; note that that's being calculated by averaging dodge and parry since the set isn't optimized for avoidance (i.e. dodge and parry are a few percent different).

Code: Select all
Gem trade, "EG" means "epic gems"                      STA/CTC ratio
                                                  (in STA per point of mastery)
Defender->Solid, no bonus                                  4.922
Defender->Solid, 30 Parry bonus, EG                        2.207
Defender->Solid, 30 Parry bonus                            1.969
Defender->Solid + Puissant->Solid, 30 Parry bonus, EG      1.796
Defender->Solid + Puissant->Solid, 30 Parry bonus          1.703
Puissant->Solid, no bonus                                  1.500
Defender->Solid, 20 Mastery bonus, EG                      1.340
Puissant->Solid, 10 Parry bonus, EG                        1.319
Puissant->Solid, 10 Parry bonus                            1.302
Puissant->Solid, 20 Parry bonus, EG                        1.190
Defender->Solid, 20 Mastery bonus                          1.150
Puissant->Solid, 20 Parry bonus                            1.150
Puissant->Solid, 30 Parry bonus, EG                        1.084
Puissant->Solid, 30 Parry bonus                            1.029
Puissant->Solid, 15 STA bonus, EG                          0.880
Puissant->Solid, 15 STA bonus                              0.750
Puissant->Solid, 45 STA bonus, EG                         -0.320
Puissant->Solid, 45 STA bonus                             -0.750
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:26 am

Updated to T13H gear, and including approximate values for warriors. The mastery:avoidance factor for paladins is 3.5413; for warriors it's 2.3609.

Code: Select all
                                             Paladin             Warrior
Gem trade              Socket Bonus      Blue      Epic      Blue      Epic
Def->Sol                                 5.312     5.241     3.541     3.494
50 Dodge->40 STA       (bracer ench)     2.833               1.889         
Fin->Sol                                 2.339     2.339     2.107     2.107
Def->Sol               30 Parry          2.125     2.382     1.417     1.588
Fin->Sol               30 Parry          1.759     1.850     1.457     1.553
Def->Sol + Pui->Sol    30 Parry          1.759     1.850     1.457     1.553
Def->Sol + Fra->Sol    30 Parry          1.663     1.709     1.471     1.528
Fin->Sol + Pui->Sol    30 Parry          1.663     1.709     1.471     1.528
Fin->Sol + Fra->Sol    30 Parry          1.619     1.657     1.478     1.526
Pui->Sol                                 1.500     1.480     1.500     1.480
Fin->Def                                 1.500     1.480     1.500     1.480
Fra->Pui                                 1.500     1.480     1.500     1.480
Fra->Sol                                 1.500     1.500     1.500     1.500
Fra->Sol               10 Parry          1.401     1.420     1.356     1.383
Pui->Sol               10 Parry          1.314     1.330     1.238     1.266
Fra->Sol               30 Parry          1.238     1.283     1.138     1.196
Def->Sol               20 Mast           1.170     1.367     1.054     1.210
Pui->Sol               20 Parry          1.170     1.207     1.054     1.105
Fra->Sol               15 STA            1.125     1.200     1.125     1.200
Pui->Sol               30 Parry          1.054     1.105     0.917     0.981
Fin->Def               30 Parry          1.054     1.105     0.917     0.981
Pui->Sol               15 STA            0.750     0.880     0.750     0.880
Fin->Def               20 Mast           0.750     0.822     0.750     0.822
Fra->Sol               45 STA            0.375     0.600     0.375     0.600
Pui->Sol               45 STA           -0.750    -0.320    -0.750    -0.320
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:48 pm

I've just updated all of the calculations to use the T13H gear set. This will be the last update for Cataclysm, as we don't expect to get any more new content or gear before 5.0. I've also tagged the final version of the code for 4.3.2. From now on, we'll be focusing our development effort on the 5.0 code.

If anyone is interested in joining the development effort, we can always use more help. I'm already working on the 5.0 code, so people with coding experience can jump in right away if they want to. Once the beta becomes available we'll need lots of testing done, so there will be ways for people who have no programming experience to contribute.

Within a few weeks I'll have a 5.0 thread and a new Call to Arms thread up for discussion of the new code. Feel free to continue using this thread to discuss the current simulations or for feature requests for the 5.0 code.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby econ21 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:40 am

Thanks for all your hard work, theck.

I am curious - where would one find out the formulae for the damage done by our various abilities? e.g. how they depend on weapon dps, strength, spell power etc? I know it would be in your matlab code, but are there external links that give the formulae or is it mainly stuff that you have divined through your own testing?

The reason for asking is that I thinking about Prot PvP and whether it would imply different stat weights from those from your PvE rotation. From a comparison of recount in PvE and PvP, I can see differences in the share of damage from different abilities (primarily CS and ShotR account for 10 percentage points less of damage each in PvP relative to working out on a training dummy) but I don't know what that would imply for stat weights. I am thinking about issues such as whether to use Soul Drinker or a higher tier PvP weapon; whether to gem strength or resilience etc. Your simulations give a good basis for quantifying some effects given a PvE rotation; I'd like to get an insight into how things may differ in a more messy PvP context.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:14 am

econ21 wrote:Prot PvP

Just a reminder that vengeance doesn't build up from player damage anymore. I'm sure you know that, but it does make Prot damage a bit laughable now.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:26 am

Skye1013 wrote:
econ21 wrote:Prot PvP

Just a reminder that vengeance doesn't build up from player damage anymore. I'm sure you know that, but it does make Prot damage a bit laughable now.

I'm pretty sure that change was reverted in a hotfix, because it was causing the ludicrous SoT damage bug.

As far as the formulas, most of it is from rigorous testing on our part (the exact type of testing we'll have to perform in the MoP beta). If you want to scrutinize the equations, they're all in ability_model (linking you to a tagged version, as we're already cleaning out the trunk in preparation for MoP).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:40 am

theckhd wrote:I'm pretty sure that change was reverted in a hotfix, because it was causing the ludicrous SoT damage bug.

Interesting, if true...
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Worldie » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:09 am

theckhd wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:
econ21 wrote:Prot PvP

Just a reminder that vengeance doesn't build up from player damage anymore. I'm sure you know that, but it does make Prot damage a bit laughable now.

I'm pretty sure that change was reverted in a hotfix, because it was causing the ludicrous SoT damage bug.

As far as the formulas, most of it is from rigorous testing on our part (the exact type of testing we'll have to perform in the MoP beta). If you want to scrutinize the equations, they're all in ability_model (linking you to a tagged version, as we're already cleaning out the trunk in preparation for MoP).

What was causing the bug with SoT had something to deal with Hunter's Scatter Shot.

The "no vengeance from PvP" was in the patch notes and should still be in place.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:15 am

Ah, found the blue post I was thinking of: http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/263 ... aladin-Bug

So for the most part, Vengeance is gone in PvP.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Iminmmnni » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:58 pm

econ21 wrote:Your simulations give a good basis for quantifying some effects given a PvE rotation; I'd like to get an insight into how things may differ in a more messy PvP context.


The main issue I see with using a PvE rotation model for PvP is that the rotation code assumes you are always in melee range and can always attempt to hit your target - something that is definitely not true in PvP. It might be useful to gauge stat weighting on ability damage based on your PvP recount casts but if you ever manage to actually get a rotation happening in PvP then you opponents are probably doing something wrong ;)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kelaan » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:18 pm

You generally still do the same rotation in PvP, the issue is that things like Hands of Protection, Freedom, and Sacrifice or WoG (or cleanse) are higher priority than almost any of that. You still need to focus on building holy power and spending it well -- it's just that you're not always spending it on damage. That's not going to change. The main differences are that mana regen, and building holy power, are in some ways MORE important, since your dps matters in PvP more than in pve.

If you're not in melee range, you are still using judgement and AS. We're not surprised by this. When you are in melee range, Theck's hit/exp capped values are likely pretty well applicable (as both are easy to cap via reforging in PvP gear).

Same for Ret. You aren't mashing buttons, you're trying to do the same stuff you do in PvE: push out damage, and keep people from dying. (Exception: sometimes it's better to spend HP on TV rather than Inq, it seems, but running w/o Inq up seems to hurt long-term.)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Schroom » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:30 am

Yesterday, I got my hands no No'kaled normal (which is my 3rd weapon next to Souldrinker normal and Hand of Morchok HM), as we have no Shaman and our rogue got his Legendary already. I'm pretty curious if I will get a noticeable difference, compared to Souldrinker normal, in means of DPS. yes Thecks numbers say No'kaled is better in DPS terms, but does anyone have a practical experience, using this weapon?

by the way I'm at 26 Exp and 1,47% Hit.

and what I guess would be more interessting, as Souldrinker scales with stamina, does it make such a difference, that at a certain point with XX stamina, souldirnker would be bether in DPS as No'kaled?

here a link to my toon if anyone needs it: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/d ... m/advanced
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