Fitness and being Healthy

Invisusira's playground

Moderators: Aergis, Invisusira

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Arnock » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:10 am

You definitely should be stretching before any prolonged running, it doesn't really improve performance, but it will help prevent injuries, or general muscle pain/tightness.

At the very least, stretch your hamstrings, calves, and quads.
Image
Courage not of this earth in your eyes
Faith from far beyond lies deep inside
User avatar
Arnock
 
Posts: 2820
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:36 pm
Location: Everywhere and nowhere

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Dapaladin » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:41 pm

Nikachelle wrote:I'm fairly positive this isn't the best place to be asking for medical help, but I'm wondering if anyone has had to deal with a similar issue I'm experiencing right now.

I've been running pretty consistently over the past year or so, although it slowed down in the past few months, but I've at least been running 5k once a week. Last week I stepped it up to 5k, twice a week. On the day between runs I noticed I had somewhat of a "stitch"/cramp on my right hip throughout the day. My lower back was hurting a little bit, but I didn't pay much attention to it since it wasn't anything severe. I ran another 5k the next day and the pain I experienced while waking up the next morning was awful. The pain the morning after (this morning) is insane. Woke up at 5:30 am, in pain, and haven't been able to get back to sleep. It feels like the pain is radiating out from my lower spine into my right hip. I'm unsure if I should even try to stretch it out (although doing so is pretty painful) and lying down in any position is completely uncomfortable.

I have experienced lower back pain before, although I wouldn't call it chronic - but it's only happened during period where I wasn't being physically active (namely, when I first discovered WoW). I've certainly got excess weight on me, but I would venture to say I'm healthier than most people in my weight range as I do play soccer regularly throughout the summer (and have done so since I was eight), run about 2-3 times per week, in addition to walking about 5k every day to work (that's both directions included).

Any thoughts? I hope it's just a muscle strain, but it's hard not to be worried about something like your back.


I'd recommend that anyone who runs to work on getting rid of their "running shoes". When you run in running shoes you land on your heels which causes your knees and hips to absorb all the shock of the impact and those body parts are not designed to do so. If you watch the way people run who have never worn shoes (Ethiopian runners) when they run they land on the balls of their feet letting the arch of their foot and their calves absorb the shock which is the way the body is intended to run. Some people mistake this for running on your toes which will strain your calves and feet more so than needed. I'm not sure where you run Nikachelle but if it's on a treadmill I'd recommend practicing running barefoot for small increments and increase it over time. If you run out doors there are minimalist shoes you can get if you don't want to run around outside without shoes on. If you do decide to try this you can't just switch to all barefoot running right away as your calves and the muscles in your feet will be underdeveloped and you will run a high risk of straining or some other overwork injury.

Of course I'm not doctor or personal trainer just a fitness enthusiast. There is a lot of science out there to support how destructive running shoes are but it's not an easy switch and in the end it's up to you!

Edit: Yeah and what people said stretching prevents injury like pulling a muscle. You actually don't have to stretch if you do a slow paced warm-up as it fits the same purpose to warm-up your muscles before you get into an actual workout.
Image
Dapaladin
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:19 pm

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:31 am

Dapaladin wrote:I'd recommend that anyone who runs to work on getting rid of their "running shoes". When you run in running shoes you land on your heels which causes your knees and hips to absorb all the shock of the impact and those body parts are not designed to do so. If you watch the way people run who have never worn shoes (Ethiopian runners) when they run they land on the balls of their feet letting the arch of their foot and their calves absorb the shock which is the way the body is intended to run. Some people mistake this for running on your toes which will strain your calves and feet more so than needed. I'm not sure where you run Nikachelle but if it's on a treadmill I'd recommend practicing running barefoot for small increments and increase it over time. If you run out doors there are minimalist shoes you can get if you don't want to run around outside without shoes on. If you do decide to try this you can't just switch to all barefoot running right away as your calves and the muscles in your feet will be underdeveloped and you will run a high risk of straining or some other overwork injury.

Of course I'm not doctor or personal trainer just a fitness enthusiast. There is a lot of science out there to support how destructive running shoes are but it's not an easy switch and in the end it's up to you!

Edit: Yeah and what people said stretching prevents injury like pulling a muscle. You actually don't have to stretch if you do a slow paced warm-up as it fits the same purpose to warm-up your muscles before you get into an actual workout.

This isn't for everyone though. I know this is anecdotal, but one of the guys I work with attempted to switch to running on the balls of his feet. Initially he thought it was helping him (though he was always feeling it, and even had difficulties walking some days.) It's not like he tried to immediately switch over either, he was running ~3-4 miles a day before, then dropped to <1 mile while trying to transition. Ultimately it was just causing him pain in other areas (hips/back) after trying it for about 3 months or so. He made the switch back to his normal running habits (which wasn't heel running, but certainly isn't "balls of the feet" running) and now his pain has gone away.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3687
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:38 am

Aubade wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:What sort of time frame are we talking about? 1 month, 1 year, more? If your calorie scale dropped 500 per day (via lower calorie foods and/or more activity) that's roughly 1 pound a week.


roughly a year

Then that's not all that surprising. If you weren't really gaining weight before ("plateaud" as seems to be the common term) then a reduction in calories definitely could have cause a 30lb. loss in a year. Even at 250 a day:

250cal x 7days = 1750cal ~= .5lb
.5lb x 52wks = 26lbs
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3687
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Fivelives » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:26 am

The jury's out regarding barefoot running. Nobody's come up with solid evidence that says it's better, just that it's different - and the most vehement supporters of barefoot running can still only say "it's more natural! And nature is better!"

Personally, I've seen more repetitive stress injuries (shin splints, dropped arches, etc) in my running group among people that run barefoot or in those godawful "toe shoes" than among people that wear proper running shoes. I'm not sure if it's training or what, but that's my own anecdotal experience.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 2804
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:21 am

We run outside, never on a treadmill, and more often throughout the winter than the summer. Running barefoot is not an option, nor is wearing minimalist shoes through the snow that we occasionally have to deal with.

Anyway, I've run my entire life, this isn't something I've picked up on a whim and decided to do. I think my current lack of fitness in areas other than running was a contributing factor to the muscle strain I just experienced. It's already lessened to the point of being almost unnoticeable and I imagine I'll be back running next week, but will be sure to stretch and start doing more core exercises in order to make sure my muscles are a bit stronger.
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8422
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby katraya » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:36 am

I find it incredibly amusing when I see people running through the city barefoot. Considering the number of times I have seen broken glass, dog shit, and hypodermic needles on the sidewalk I think they have a pretty warped view of what is "healthy."
Image
User avatar
katraya
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1826
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:42 am

katraya wrote:I find it incredibly amusing when I see people running through the city barefoot. Considering the number of times I have seen broken glass, dog shit, and hypodermic needles on the sidewalk I think they have a pretty warped view of what is "healthy."

Exactly. I don't even like the idea of running on a gym treadmill barefoot. Ew.
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8422
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby katraya » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:35 am

There is a woman at my gym (which is at my workplace) that runs in just socks and without a shirt. Obviously she is illiterate since there are signs everywhere saying that neither of those things is acceptable.
Image
User avatar
katraya
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1826
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Shyrtandros » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:41 am

katraya wrote:There is a woman at my gym (which is at my workplace) that runs in just socks and without a shirt. Obviously she is illiterate since there are signs everywhere saying that neither of those things is acceptable.


Pics or it didn't happen... unless she's fugly.. then I trust you.. ;)
"Warning: AA posts may cause severe urges to buy or rent games you may not have been interested in, known about or would normally consider playing. If you experience sudden urges to purchase said games please consult your wallet, bank account or significant other to see if these games are right for you and your budget."
User avatar
Shyrtandros
 
Posts: 630
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:54 am

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:28 am

Got a fitocracy invite! \o/
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3687
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby katraya » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:20 am

I ordered a Fitbit last night, I am really quite excited about it. I have been hearing great things about it from people on another forum I frequent.
Image
User avatar
katraya
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1826
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:19 am

Only problem I'd have with that is being unable to take it into our vault. It could be completely safe, but we aren't allowed wireless transmitting devices (heck, we can't even have a regular old iPod...)
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3687
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:21 am

Skye1013 wrote:Only problem I'd have with that is being unable to take it into our vault. It could be completely safe, but we aren't allowed wireless transmitting devices (heck, we can't even have a regular old iPod...)

What... like a bank vault?
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8422
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:38 am

Intel vault... where we keep all our secret squirrel stuff (shh... don't tell anyone!)
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3687
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Aubade » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:39 pm

Hmm that fitrep thing looks pretty cool
- Awbade Level 85 Human Paladin - <Tsunami> Frostmourne - Retired.
- Aubade Level 88+ Blood Elf Paladin - BloodScalp - Casual
- Awbade Level 85+ Blood Elf Death Knight - BloodScalp - Casual
- Awbabe Level 85+ Undead Mage - BloodScalp - Casual
Image
User avatar
Aubade
Moderator
 
Posts: 4042
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:51 am
Location: Tacoma, WA

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:21 am

Ok... so this falls more under the "health" category...

Occasionally, I'll get this feeling over most (if not all) of my body that's like little pins or needles pricking me (kind of like an itch, but over nearly my entire body.) It never really lasts more than about 10-15 seconds, but I'm wondering what could be the cause of it. Anyone else ever have similar experiences?
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3687
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Arnock » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:53 am

Skye1013 wrote:Intel vault... where we keep all our secret squirrel stuff (shh... don't tell anyone!)



Not gonna lie, when I first read this post, my mind put "Intel" together with "Squirrel" and went to something along these lines:


Image


and I imagined a secret underground research facility containing thousands of squirrel-powered server banks.
Image
Courage not of this earth in your eyes
Faith from far beyond lies deep inside
User avatar
Arnock
 
Posts: 2820
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:36 pm
Location: Everywhere and nowhere

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:18 pm

Occasionally, I'll get this feeling over most (if not all) of my body that's like little pins or needles pricking me (kind of like an itch, but over nearly my entire body.)


I have experienced something similar, associated with a Niacin overdose in my case. Niacin is a vitamin that can 'encourage' you blood vessels to dilate. I learned about it in college and would sometimes take extra Niacin to sort of 'cleanse' if you will. Its an interesting experience, but it can be rather intense if you take too much. Your body gets all red (dilated blood vessles) ALL over, and you itch/burn everywhere. It can last for 20-mins for a modest OD to like 1+ hour if you are too irresponsible. Afterwards you would need to replenish your B-vitamins.

If this is what is happeneing to you, then it will happen after you take a vitamin/niacin supplement or consume food high in Niacin. But that is the only thing I am familiar with that is similar to what you describe.
Never Pug a random Troll Heroic, always wait for the guild group.

Hrobearina - 85 Healer - space goat
Hrobertgar - 85 Tank - human
Hrobernia - 85 Arcane - human
Hrobanka - 85 BM - elf
Hrobertgar
 
Posts: 541
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:42 pm

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Arnock » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:26 pm

Skye1013 wrote:Ok... so this falls more under the "health" category...

Occasionally, I'll get this feeling over most (if not all) of my body that's like little pins or needles pricking me (kind of like an itch, but over nearly my entire body.) It never really lasts more than about 10-15 seconds, but I'm wondering what could be the cause of it. Anyone else ever have similar experiences?



Does it feel like the same 'pins and needles' that you get when a foot falls asleep?

If so, it sounds like something nerve-related. At any rate, you might want to get that checked out by an actual doctor.
Image
Courage not of this earth in your eyes
Faith from far beyond lies deep inside
User avatar
Arnock
 
Posts: 2820
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:36 pm
Location: Everywhere and nowhere

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby katraya » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:29 pm

Arnock wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:Ok... so this falls more under the "health" category...

Occasionally, I'll get this feeling over most (if not all) of my body that's like little pins or needles pricking me (kind of like an itch, but over nearly my entire body.) It never really lasts more than about 10-15 seconds, but I'm wondering what could be the cause of it. Anyone else ever have similar experiences?



Does it feel like the same 'pins and needles' that you get when a foot falls asleep?

If so, it sounds like something nerve-related. At any rate, you might want to get that checked out by an actual doctor.

That is what I was thinking. Nerve/circulation. I'd talk to a professional. It's probably nothing but better safe than sorry etc.
Image
User avatar
katraya
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1826
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:57 am

I did some google searches before I posted, and most people that have described similar experiences, have them for days/weeks/months at a time. Mine only ever last about 20 seconds. And I'd have to say it's not quite like a foot falling asleep, it's like your entire body starts itching at the same time. At one point I thought it had to do with extreme temperature changes (like my body was overheating while adjusting from coming inside after being in the cold) but I'm not so sure about that now, since when it happened yesterday, I was inside the entire time.

I'll hold off seeing a doctor just yet (I don't want it to somehow delay my leaving Germany any longer than I'm already being delayed.) Maybe I'll discuss it with someone while I'm on leave in the states.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3687
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:59 am

Hrobertgar wrote:If this is what is happeneing to you, then it will happen after you take a vitamin/niacin supplement or consume food high in Niacin. But that is the only thing I am familiar with that is similar to what you describe.

I guess that's a possibility, but I'm not taking any sort of supplements. Not sure if Niacin is something typically found in energy drinks (Monster/Amp) guess I could google that as well.


Edit:
What's in AMP Overdrive? I'm glad you asked, because whoever designed this can did a great job of making that information easily available (unlike many of the other cans, I mean, who makes an energy drink and doesn't list the mg of caffeine?) The following are mg and % of daily allowance (where applicable) per serving: Riboflavin 1.7mg/100%, Niacin 20mg/100%, Pantothenic Acid 10mg/100%, Phosphorus 20mg/2%, Taurine 148mg (this is fairly low compared to other energy drinks, but I don't seem to miss it that much), Guarana Extract 124mg, Caffeine 80mg (guarana/caffeine is a better combination than caffeine/taurine IMHO), Maltodextrin 74mg, Panax Ginseng Extract 17mg, Yerba Mate Extract 8mg (which contains caffeine, but is reported to be gentler on the stomach than other forms of caffeine. To me, the amount here is so negligible, I wouldn't expect it to make a great deal of difference).

Got this from an energy drink review website, so can't verify accuracy (the Amp website wasn't helpful.)

Looks like Niacin could have been the culprit.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3687
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Amshel » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:28 am

When I had a energy drink overdose, I got really clammy, hot, dizzy, and shaky. Erratic breathing. My skin might have gone a bit puffy too, but it was so long ago, I can't recall all the details. It was pretty special.
User avatar
Amshel
 
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:52 pm

Re: Fitness and being Healthy

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:44 am

Not sure I'd call it an "overdose" as I rarely, if ever, drink more than one energy drink in a day, and it's almost always spread out over at least a 2-3 hour period (most times I can go an 8 hour period on the same one.)
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3687
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

PreviousNext

Return to Arkham Asylum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

Who is online

In total there are 0 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 0 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests