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Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests Here)

Get help with your character's gear

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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:41 am

@sola

~Maklesh pretty much summed up what I was going to say. However, I recommend using Chardev.org over AMR just because of how often AMR gives different advice on how to do your gear.

Don't be relying on the procs to ensure you're at tCTC, this is not a reliable way to gear because those procs are never guarenteed to be up when you need them to be. So pick up a mastery trinket and we can offer some better advice on how to adjust your gems and such.

I also don't recommend 2/2 PoJ. There are ~no~ fights in which you're really having to run around and collect anything. The only fight that really comes to mind is Yor'sahj and that's only if you're running out to hit blobs. Outside of that, 15% run speed isn't all that great when 8% suffices just fine. 2/2 Reckoning is more than a filler talent, it's the 3rd (4th?) best single target threat talent we have and since you're in a 10 man guild, the extra DPS never hurts.





@Maklesh

Being at 26 exp, is kind of not necessary for Spine. The mobs there are only level 87 and during the first two plates, there isn't enough bloods on you, or amaglations depending on your strat, to really warrant it. If you're tanking bloods, once you get to the point where you have a lot on you, then you're kiting anyway to avoid being hit.

So if anything, lose that avoidance for stam, not exp.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Maklesh » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:50 am

Aye the expertise would be more for other fights than Spine indeed. I'm the blood tank and our strat involves a lot of cleaving (warrior whirlwind, ret divine storm, lock with aoe trinket) so that sorts us pretty well until the end of the fight.
Thing is that there's not much stam to be had at the moment. I want to keep Souldrinker (otherwise the exp is even more useless) and thus need the mastery trinket. Apart from that I already have stam gems fitted in everything.

Reason I said mrrobot is that its more of a 1-click-done kind of website where chardev needs more personal tweaking (unless i missed something there). And I didn't know about Reckoning, good to know!
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:01 am

Ah, yea, guess it would have helped had I pulled your toon up in Chardev and looked at it. </3 you for having Indom Pride btw.

So yea, by the point you have a lot of bloods on you (3rd Plate), you're kiting anyway and trying to ~not~ be hit as the 22.5k phyiscal damage explosion the bloods do when they die would only hinder your healers' mana anyway that will probably be stretched by that point in the fight.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Sola » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:17 am

Hi again, tx for all you comment

about the trinket i have some alternatives: the normal spider one from FL, the brocken image that i loved for long time for the protection shield.

I'll give a look to my glyphs and talents to adjust them with your suggestions (actually it's a long time i don't look at my glyphs)

So you suggest to go with a stamina and one static mastery trinket and to gem with stamina. In this case what trinked would you drop off? Soulshifter cause in that case if i get to a static CTC al the mastery from the proc is non influent, right?

(btw sorry for my poor english)
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:20 am

Soulshifter is a bad trinket all around for paladin tanks. Mastery does nothing for us after tCTC and you should not be relying on procs to get you to 102.4%. The only thing you should be relying on, are raid buffs as those are standard to be up unless you die and get combat res'd.

I do recommend a mastery / stam trinket combo. You can, more often than not, get more stam out of gemming stam then relying on lackluster stam trinkets.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:13 am

Aye the expertise would be more for other fights than Spine indeed


Personally I have long favored being at Exp soft cap and having some hit, so I may be biased. That being said, I think it is still worth it for you. I've heard lots of people are using Tanks with threat stats (26 exp & a fair amount of hit) to manage H-Ultrax. In fact the group I heal for got our first kill last week that way. Afterwards, I raised my own tank's hit rating from 4%+ to 6%+ in anticipation of some H-Ultrax tries soon. It can also help on Madenss vs the Blistering tetnacles and basically any fight where the tank will be dpsing adds at some point.

My experience is that wipes for my groups (10m, 3h) are caused by:
1: Mechanics - we haven't fully learned them yet
2: Mechanics - we understand them but just executed poorly (I lump Healer/Tank execution fail into this)
3: Dps - we hit the enrage

I can understand groups that 2-Heal most fights have more issues with tank survivability and fewer issues with dps, but that is rarely my personnal experience. A tank doing 17k dps vs a tank doing 6k dps makes a huge difference to a 10m raid output assuming that he is still surivable. In most cases a modest sacrifice of dodge/parry % given DR will yield substantial exp/hit, and you said you will still maintain CTC thru Mastery/Block.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:58 am

Fenrìr wrote:I also don't recommend 2/2 PoJ. There are ~no~ fights in which you're really having to run around and collect anything. The only fight that really comes to mind is Yor'sahj and that's only if you're running out to hit blobs. Outside of that, 15% run speed isn't all that great when 8% suffices just fine. 2/2 Reckoning is more than a filler talent, it's the 3rd (4th?) best single target threat talent we have and since you're in a 10 man guild, the extra DPS never hurts.

I would actually disagree here. There are still a lot of fights where movement is important. You're going to be moving frequently on Yor'sahj, Zon'ozz, Hagara, Blackhorn, Spine, and Madness.

In addition, you're blindly taking the Reckoning DPS value I've calculated at face value. Keep in mind that's only valid under certain assumptions, namely that you're actively tanking 100% of the time and the boss is meleeing you at fixed 2-second intervals (or 2.2 seconds, I forget what we're using for the boss swing timer). Neither of those are strictly true in practice. On most fights, you share tanking duties, so you're only taking melee attacks half of the time, and most bosses have spells or channeled abilities that interrupt their melee. So the practical value of Reckoning is generally less than 50% of the nominal value calculated.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:34 pm

I disagree with your bosses listed, at least in my guild.

~Yor'sahj...I'm always beating the dps to the glob even with 1/2 PoJ; potentially single tanked so nearly 100% on boss minus glob switching.
~Zonozz, I only move once and that's from the middle to the claw and then I stay there for the rest of the fight; single tank fight, 100% on boss.
~Hagara, not really moving except during phases and with 1/2 PoJ during Ice, I'm waiting on the waves to move as is and during lightning, I cannot range my fellow chain person.
~Blackhorn...the ship isn't big enough to warrant 2/2 PoJ especially since we should be in the middle of the ship as is
~Spine...again, not really big enough. I could see it's value for kiting during the 3rd plate, but with double holy wrath stuns my guild use, I'm on the other side by the time the stun wears off.
~Madness...again, not really that big of a platform, probably much smaller than the ship; depending on strat, single tank fight so when it matters, 100% on whatever you're tanking minus Deathwing.


Even if I am taking 2/2 Reckoning at face value, most of the fights are single tank fights. Morchock is a bit of an exception in that you use 2 tanks, but each tank is 100% on his/her boss minus Black Blood. Ultraxion is the first ~true~ required two tank fight. So even if you're talking about moving bosses, the only bosses I move after getting them in position can be ranked as:

Hagara (she just moves too much)
Bloods on spine once on 3rd plate
Morchock (due to stomp/crystal spawning range)
Warlord (move him just once from middle to side)
Warmaster and Yor'sahj (but they just move about 10 feet either left or right once)
Madness (most of the stuff you either go too, or stand on a healer)
Ultraxion (doesn't move period)



So to me, 2/2 Reckoning is a much better talent as you're not moving as much as previous tiers.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:00 pm

So you think 1/2 PoJ is better than taking the boot speed enchant? just curious.

Previously I had the big Mastery enchant for my boots and 2/2 PoJ, but a few weeks back I dropepd PoJ (think I took final point in WoG shield and can't remember the other, possibly Reckoning), then supplemented my speed by going for the partial mastery + ~8% speed enchant. I figured, yes it cost me some net mastery, but it freed up 2 talent points and i'm still at full CTC anyways.

Since I usually run with 3 healers the 20sec CD on WoG lead me to rarely use it, but I felt it could be an extra CD for some DS situations, although now my DK co-tank has since taken over MT duties and i'm just OT so it isn't as important.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:03 pm

They're basically one and the same thing. It's just a difference of 15 mastery rating.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:06 pm

Well, you can't single-tank any of those fights in 25-man heroic modes, for starters.

-Beating the DPS to a glob on Yor'sahj is irrelevant. The fact that your raiders suck at moving doesn't somehow lessen the DPS gain you get from a movement talent. And again, on 25H you can't get away with a cheesy one-tank strategy.
-Zon'ozz potentially involves moving the boss to the orb when it bounces in weird directions, which can be very time-critical. Being able to move somewhere a half-second faster can make the difference between a kill and a wipe. And again, on 25-man you have two claws, so at least one tank has to move across the room to the other side.
-If you're waiting for ice waves to get out of your way, you're not spending enough time on the previous crystal. You can sit on one crystal, then run straight to the next one and continue DPSing. There should be no dead time unless the previous crystal died early, which should only happen once unless you allocate your DPS players poorly. And again, in ice phase having the extra movement speed can make a big difference if someone drops a frost patch in a bad location.
-The size of the ship is, again, irrelevant. You're often moving across the boat to deal with encounter mechanics (either cleaving off of a rider to the drake, or moving riders to the explosion patches, or moving anything out of fire). I'm not sure how it's done on 10-man, but on 25H, you can't just tank everything in the center.
-Extra movement gets you to the tendon faster, which lets you get an extra GCD on the only relevant DPS check in the entire encounter. It also lets you position the amalgamation faster, depending on what your tank positioning is on that fight. Note that your DPS on anything but the tendon on this fight is irrelevant, and the tendon doesn't melee you.
-Madness is a bigger platform than you give it credit for, you gain about a GCD by reducing movement time between the arm (which doesn't melee) and the tentacle (which only melees you 50% of the time, generally). And you perform that movement at least 8 times during the encounter, in addition to being able to move between the phase 3 tentacles faster. Also note that deathwing doesn't melee either, so Reckoning is particularly bad in Madness. If there's one fight in Dragon Soul where I'd consider speccing out of Reckoning completely, it's Madness.

Also consider that by not using a movement enchant, you're able to enchant 50 hit, which is a ~110-150 DPS increase, on-par with what you get from the second point of Reckoning on a two-tank fight.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:16 pm

Zon'ozz and Yor'Sahk rooms feature 25% run speed buff which doesn't stack with PoJ fyi.

Hagara you can single tank on 25 man, just need 3 external CDs really.

(Not advocating skipping PoJ for progress apart from on Ultraxion though, just being pedantic.)
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:18 pm

We're not really discussing 25 man, Theck. He asked about stepping into 10 man Heroic. 25 man is a different beast and you're able that luxury of having an extra tank.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:30 pm

Rhiannon wrote:Zon'ozz and Yor'Sahk rooms feature 25% run speed buff which doesn't stack with PoJ fyi.

Huh, really? I've never noticed that. Do you happen to know what it's called?
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:34 pm

Fenrìr wrote:We're not really discussing 25 man, Theck. He asked about stepping into 10 man Heroic. 25 man is a different beast and you're able that luxury of having an extra tank.

While I was pretty specific about 25H, my point wasn't really limited to that. Run speed has always been a bit of a personal choice. Some people value it, others don't. It's often hard to put a number on it, because it performs a variety of functions - it gets you to the target faster (increased DPS), it gets you out of the fire faster (fewer deaths), and gives you more reaction time (compensates for loss of attention and/or mistakes). Generally, I feel the sum of those benefits outweigh the DPS cost (in this case, the second point of Reckoning and/or a point in Eye for an Eye). Others will disagree, as you do. But I don't think that you're going to have much luck proving it either way.

That's why I'm responding at all. You're recommending against it, I'm offering a counter-recommendation. I don't think he'd be wrong (or unable to down bosses) with either choice, but I also don't want anyone to get the impression that everyone agrees on the matter.
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