resolve of undying

Get help with your character's gear

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, majiben, lythac, Digren

Re: resolve of undying

Postby Extermi » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:08 am

Cowmmunion wrote:I cannot think of a fight in DS where more then 50% of the damage is avoidable.


Browsing through a couple of WorldOfLogs reposts I tend to disagree - there is still alot of damage from Melee, around 70% on the tank on several bosses (e.g. Mochok), of course less on others, but roughly 50% melee damage overall (all boss kills).

E.G. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/49t3 ... ?enc=kills

What information is your statement based on ?

Greetings,

Extermi
Extermi
 
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:23 pm

Re: resolve of undying

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:31 am

Extermi wrote:Now, as this will reduce the avoidable damage we take from taking ~60 out of 100 hits to taking less than 57, or roughly 6% less damage taken. I recall times when there was a lot of discussion about tank viability compared to warriors when numbers were in the 3% range. So how can 6% not be relevant ?


Because despite what some people seem to think, 3% damage taken has not been relevant at any point in this expansion, nor would have 6%. Remember that it's only 6% of melee throughput damage, which has rarely been a danger in Cataclysm.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8001
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: resolve of undying

Postby Cowmmunion » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:43 am

Extermi wrote:
Cowmmunion wrote:I cannot think of a fight in DS where more then 50% of the damage is avoidable.


Browsing through a couple of WorldOfLogs reposts I tend to disagree - there is still alot of damage from Melee, around 70% on the tank on several bosses (e.g. Mochok), of course less on others, but roughly 50% melee damage overall (all boss kills).

E.G. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/49t3 ... ?enc=kills

What information is your statement based on ?

Greetings,

Extermi


Morchok: The big damage is from the crystals and stomps. Also, gearing for this fight is silly. Melee damage is around 60% on tanks, but keeping the tanks upright on this fight isn't the healing challenge at all.
Yorsahj: Void bolts, then the damage from red. Tank damage from melee is a minor secondary consideration. 70% of my damage in this fight is from void bolt. Log you linked = 29% melee
Zonozz: Big damage is in the black phase, from the ball and from psychic drain. While Melee damage is high on this fight, it's never the melee damage that is the worry - it is the burst damage from ball/psychic drain. You need to survive the burst damage and you cannot count on avoidance for that.
Hagara: Focused Assault (unavoidable), other miscellaneous spells - melee damage from the boss is minor.
Ultrax: Big damage is from hour of twilight and AOE. 35% of my damage taken is Melee, most is twilight instability
Blackhorn: The only fight this tier that resolve is possibly useful for. Tanking the adds avoidance is useful, and avoiding the debuff from blackhorn who hits like a truck.
Spine: trololol
Madness: another fight where avoidance is irrelevant entirely.

Ok, so I was wrong. On blackhorn it might be useful.
Cowmmunion
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:12 am

Re: resolve of undying

Postby Extermi » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:28 pm

Thanks for the detailed answers, it always a pleasure for me to learn from the experienced raiders here at Maintankadin. So I will chose my setup accordingly,and probably use resolve less often than I thought.

What keeps me thinking after your answers, though. If dying to melee is normally not the problem, and a few % of damage is not the issue at all, then why not ignoring the CTC ? If I would, for example, replace my fire (5% CTC) with Pride (687 STA, ~11k HP), than I would take roughly 15% more damage from avoidable melee (unblocked hit roughly +50% damage compared to blocked).

So if taking 6% more melee damage for 3K HP is "good", then 15% for 11K would be even better. Or, would the +50% damage of the unblocked hits make the individual hits too scary ?

Thanks again,

Extermi
Extermi
 
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:23 pm

Re: resolve of undying

Postby theckhd » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:43 pm

You're focusing far too much on "melee damage taken."

What generally kills a tank is spike damage. That could be a boss's special attack, a combination of a special and one or more melee, or even an unlucky string of melee. That's why "overall damage taken" is a meaningless metric. It isn't usually the throughput damage that kills you - your healers can keep up with that - it's the brief 5-6 second periods where they get interrupted and/or you take a big spike.

If the spike involves melee attacks, then stacking some dodge decreases the frequency of its occurrence, but it won't decrease the magnitude. The worst case scenario of X melee hits can (and will!) still happen. What you'd much rather do is decrease the magnitude, because that translates into buying your healers more time. If the burst is smaller, then you might survive that one second (or one extra hit) that it takes for the healer to recover and react.

That's what CTC does. You're guaranteeing that every melee attack gets 30% shaved off of it. While it's not strictly expressible in terms of effective health, I'm sure you can see the similarity - by reducing the maximum boss hit size, you're making sure you can take more of them in a row, just like you would by stacking stamina.

<edit> I should note that in situations where burst damage doesn't involve melees - such as Impale on heroic Deathwing - some tanks are giving up CTC for more stamina, because it no longer affords any smoothing benefit there. But that's the exception, not the rule.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8001
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: resolve of undying

Postby Extermi » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:23 am

Wow, thanks again for the explanations, much appreciated! I just changed my gear accordingly, and look forward to our first heroic kills next ID :-)

Extermi
Extermi
 
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:23 pm

Re: resolve of undying

Postby GMPoison » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:39 am

I'm a Prot paladin and run [Fire of the Deep] [Resolve of Undying].

You want your Dodge/Parry equal to eachother, while in combat. Get your Dodge down to around 16% (% may change depending on what your Parry is), and when you're in combat the dodge from the trinket will equal out to match up with your Parry. Since you can take alot of Dodge out of reforging, due to the trinket, you can reforge into hit/expertise, so when you're hitting the boss you will easily be able to keep your stacks up. All this will allow you to do is squeeze more dps out of your gear when it becomes very important progressing into Heroics. My health is at 190k with no stam trinkets or gems. It took me a while to understand this concept of you dont need to be CTC capped while out of combat concept, how the concept of how the trinket works, and how good it acually makes the trinket, because at first glance, *ew*.

Good luck, and hope this helps! :D
Last edited by GMPoison on Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
GMPoison
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:25 am

Re: resolve of undying

Postby theckhd » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:34 am

GMPoison wrote:My health is at 190k with no stam trinkets or gems. It took me a while to understand this concept of you dont need to be CTC capped while out of combat concept, how the concept of how the trinket works, and how good it acually makes the trinket, because at first glance, *ew*.


Except, it's still a shitty trinket. It should still be "ew" at the second, third, and all subsequent glances.

You get more CTC from a heroic Firelands trinket, in addition to a useful secondary effect. Even though the 880 dodge rating is over-budget for static stats, it's still weaker in the departments that matter for heroic DS (CTC and stamina).

190k is pretty low for heroic DS. I have around 222k unbuffed at ilvl 401.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8001
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: resolve of undying

Postby Schroom » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:24 am

the only Boss where I see myself wearing it would be Blackhorn HM for phase 2, on combination with a trinket that gets me some more avoidance "on use" or as a procc, don't you agree Theck?
User avatar
Schroom
 
Posts: 592
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
Location: Luxembourg

Re: resolve of undying

Postby theckhd » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:35 am

Eh, not especially. I'd still rather have more stamina for that fight. You only ever have to take two stacks of sunder, so it's not critical that you avoid anything. On 25H I just use my default Spidersilk+Indomitable combination.

Again, Blackhorn still tests a tank's ability to survive burst. Dodge/parry really only become useful when you care about damage taken on time scales of 20s or more, when you can start to count on statistical averaging being relevant. If you're still going to have a good chance to take 2-3 90k hits in a row, I'd much rather have the stamina, absorb bubbles, and so on to push EH and survive the burst.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8001
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: resolve of undying

Postby GMPoison » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:29 am

theckhd wrote:
GMPoison wrote:My health is at 190k with no stam trinkets or gems. It took me a while to understand this concept of you dont need to be CTC capped while out of combat concept, how the concept of how the trinket works, and how good it acually makes the trinket, because at first glance, *ew*.


Except, it's still a shitty trinket. It should still be "ew" at the second, third, and all subsequent glances.

You get more CTC from a heroic Firelands trinket, in addition to a useful secondary effect. Even though the 880 dodge rating is over-budget for static stats, it's still weaker in the departments that matter for heroic DS (CTC and stamina).

190k is pretty low for heroic DS. I have around 222k unbuffed at ilvl 401.


222k unbuffed as a prot paladin with no stam gems and one stam trinket?
GMPoison
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:25 am

Re: resolve of undying

Postby Cowmmunion » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:10 am

If you gem for Stamina, that sounds about right - I'm at 220k unbuffed, but I still have a few mastery gems left in my 397 gear. I think I could hit around 225k if I removed those and reforged for a bit more mastery. 401 iLvl, one stamina trinket.
Cowmmunion
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:12 am

Re: resolve of undying

Postby theckhd » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:22 am

GMPoison wrote:222k unbuffed as a prot paladin with no stam gems and one stam trinket?

There's an armory link in my sig, where do you think I got the number? :D
404 Average item level
(401 Equipped)
Health 222547


I'm actually a little above block cap too (maybe ~1%), thanks to drops this past weekend. I just haven't gotten around to tweaking gems yet this week.

<edit> Yup, according to CharDev I'm at 102.9% with flask/feast, 103.67% with mastery food and flask. I can shift one green gem (cloak) over to a blue gem if I use a feast, and three (cloak, gloves, shield) green->blue trades if I use mastery food.

Code: Select all
Current:                251.5k (222.5k unbuffed)
regem for feast:        252.2k (223.2k unbuffed)
regem for mastery food: 253.5k (224.4k unbuffed)


Also, I didn't say I wasn't using stam gems. I said 190k was low for DS. The reason it's low is likely because you're not using stam gems, and you're not using stam gems because you need to gem mastery to maintain block cap. Resolve isn't helping you at all in that department, because 880 dodge is only about as good as 283ish mastery for CTC. By using a decent mastery trinket instead of Resolve, you could shift around 170 mastery back to stamina (~250 stam), which is another 3.5k health or so. You could probably gain more than that even by adjusting gear a little more carefully, and picking good mastery/avoid options instead of avoid/avoid or threat/avoid in slots where it's an option.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8001
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Previous

Return to Gear Discussions and Advice

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: viperjason, Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 3 users online :: 2 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: viperjason, Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest