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[10] Ultraxion

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Re: [10] Ultraxion

Postby econ21 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:15 am

Just to say, we downed him quite easily on Saturday - once people get the button pressing business, it just seems to be a matter of arithmetic: you either have the dps or you don't. I decided to wear threat gear for the encounter, trading about a 4% chance of being critted for a chunk of hit/expertise. I did not think of forgoing WoGing every Hour and am not sure it is worth it unless we have to field less geared DPS next time, as the heals seemed quite significant and were very timely.
Last edited by econ21 on Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [10] Ultraxion

Postby Winkle » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:26 am

Cowmmunion wrote:That depends how you consider things. We one healed Ultrax last night, and I took every Hot with a cooldown + wog. Is that heal coming from an attonement priest that could perhaps do more damage than your SOTR? Is it allowing you to cut down on a healer? Is it saving your healer just a little bit of mana, allowing them to spam an extra AOE to keep the DPS up 2 seconds longer at the end of the fight? When healers are averaging 30k hps and DPS are doing 35k, is replacing a 40k SOTR with a 60k WoG a waste of DPS? Also, considering that 20321 is currently the 200th ranked Prot Paladin on Heroic Ultrax, I question your numbers overall. (22k would be the current #83 parse on WoL).


Here's me yesterday, normal numbers are higher, probably because you can get away with more as damage is lower (126th @ 21979 DPS): http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/pla ... in/?page=4

But tbh if you're one healing it then you're not really looking for tips progressing on this fight. Considering i was replying to someone who is struggling to meet enrage i would consider maximizing tank dps to me more achievable than 1 healing the encounter.
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Re: [10] Ultraxion

Postby Cowmmunion » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:38 am

I'm simply suggesting that saying "I can't WoG because we need the DPS" is a very short-sighted way of looking at it. If you are 2 healing the fight and making it to the hard enrage, than maybe you need squeeze out every bit of DPS. However, if you are forced to carry a third healer, or dying before the hard enrage because your healers can't keep people up in the face of the increasing damage, than anything that takes a load off the healers drastically increases DPS by far more than a SHOTR.

Nor was I questioning that you were achieving those numbers - I was suggesting that to call them required was clearly out of line.

As I seriously doubt that anyone 2-healing ultrax is hitting up against the hard enrage (and if they are, they have far bigger issues then maximizing tank dps) I find your dismissal of WOG'ing in search of tank meter-topping to be horridly short sighted, and I find your reply entirely missing (or simply avoiding) the point of my reply.
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Re: [10] Ultraxion

Postby Winkle » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:23 am

Cowmmunion wrote:I'm simply suggesting that saying "I can't WoG because we need the DPS" is a very short-sighted way of looking at it. If you are 2 healing the fight and making it to the hard enrage, than maybe you need squeeze out every bit of DPS. However, if you are forced to carry a third healer, or dying before the hard enrage because your healers can't keep people up in the face of the increasing damage, than anything that takes a load off the healers drastically increases DPS by far more than a SHOTR.

Nor was I questioning that you were achieving those numbers - I was suggesting that to call them required was clearly out of line.

As I seriously doubt that anyone 2-healing ultrax is hitting up against the hard enrage (and if they are, they have far bigger issues then maximizing tank dps) I find your dismissal of WOG'ing in search of tank meter-topping to be horridly short sighted, and I find your reply entirely missing (or simply avoiding) the point of my reply.


The person i was replying to (econ) was both 2 healing and dieing to a hard enrage. Perhaps they should indeed address their other raiders DPS but tanks can contribute. Which would lead to my initial statement that Hoy Power would be better used on SHotR.

My 22k DPS was a personal goal i had set for myself, but i was just showing what was achievable for a tank in what basically is a DPS race.

I completely understand that by utilizing other abilities such as WoG you could possibly achieve greater total raid DPS by freeing up other raid members but i was specifically addressing econ's problem not suggesting the best approach to obtain a world's fastest 10man normal ultrax kill.
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Re: [10] Ultraxion

Postby Cowmmunion » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:39 am

Perhaps I have reading failure, because I can find no point where econ was dying to a hard enrage at all. But really, it's irrelevant. [http://xkcd.com/386/]

Congrats on the kill Econ - I find that normal tank damage (From melee/raid wide damage) is quite low and threat gear can be ok. According to my last Ultrax log, a 6 minute kill would be ~130 melee attacks. That means, on average, you'd take 5 unblocked hits missing 4% CTC. These are unlikely to come at critical times or double up, meaning that dropping some CTC to get those first kills makes some sense. I wouldn't reccomend it once your DPS gets better, because eventually that will wipe you - one wipe in a sea of progression wipes is one thing, but a wipe on content you normally kill easily (which you will find ultrax to be soon) because your tank wanted an extra 400 DPS is something else.
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Re: [10] Ultraxion

Postby econ21 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:00 pm

As with many issues to do with fine tuning gear or rotation etc, I think we're talking relatively small differences that while relevant when discussing optimal play usually won't make the difference between a wipe and a kill (at least on 10N). More likely it's gear level, tactics and execution that are make or break (e.g. in this fight, pressing that button at the right time!).

Looking at World of Logs, I took 1 hit and blocked 45 blows on the kill, so I probably under-estimated my combat coverage (raidbuffs, I guess). The hit was only 20k damage, however, so it does not seem that threatening.

The threat gear boosted my dps a fair amount - I did 18k, whereas on the fails in survival gear it was more like 15k. But the change in tank dps wasn't decisive - raid dps was 160k on the kill, 140k or thereabouts on the fails.

Previously, I think we failed due to people dying from not pressing the button at the right time - with our gear level, one person down means we fail the dps check. In future for this fight, I'll probably stay in threat gear unless tank death causes a wipe, as our raid composition varies and so our raid dps is not guaranteed. (I'm also tempted to do so for the Warship, our next challenge, as we weren't killing stuff fast enough when we attempted that).

Back of the envelope calculations, I reckon using shotr instead of wog during the six Hours of Twilight would boost my dps by about 4%. I haven't checked whether the wogs were life saving - presumably not - but they certainly felt good: my health could dip quite a lot during the hour and a wog often seemed to bounce it back up to a comfortable 100k or so before the healers came back on line. I guess it may also vary overtime - the healers found the fight easy at first, but very stressy at the end due to raid damage (IIRC they said they ran out of mana just as the boss died). I probably could afford to shotr for most of the fight and wog at the end.
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Re: [10] Ultraxion

Postby Cowmmunion » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:24 pm

I'd be wary of wearing threat gear for Blackhorn. That is essentially the one fight in DS where CTC really really matters, in phase 2. His damage ramps up as his health gets low, and he applies a armor debuff that can be avoided. Getting to phase 2 is really about people figuring out the mechanics, damage output shouldn't be a huge factor.
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