Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Jeremoot » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:30 pm

madmessias wrote:Sorry if im asking for to much, but a trinket comparison would be nice :) Using license to slay+essence of the eternal flame atm, duno if any DS trinkets are better. (dumb chimaeron one won't drop, heard it's alot better tho)


The VP Trinket is really nice, probably the best for us single target. Next would be the Creche.

I have no idea how well the whirlwindy trinket scales with vengeance, but if it gets the full effect it may be pretty awesome.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:46 pm

madmessias wrote:Sorry if im asking for to much, but a trinket comparison would be nice :) Using license to slay+essence of the eternal flame atm, duno if any DS trinkets are better. (dumb chimaeron one won't drop, heard it's alot better tho)

Again, I can't easily sim out DPS values for trinkets that provide buffs because the FSM code doesn't track them. For things like License to Slay, which provide more-or-less constant stat bonuses, we can calculate estimated DPS values based on their average stat contributions using the coefficients in the Stat Comparison. For trinkets with temporary effects, it should be close enough to make time-averaged estimates of their total stat contribution.

I'm incredibly busy right now, so it's unlikely I'll get to any of that. If you take the time to post the details on the trinkets you're interested (static bonuses, buffs, buff durations+internal cooldowns or effective uptimes) then I can do the quick-and-dirty version based on the stat weights.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Awyndel » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:46 pm

Slay and Chimaeron prolly still rate amongst the highest ones, specially if you consider you will have to swap less items for hit/exp, and thus lose less str swapping to lower items. T12 prot+t13 ret would be nice set bonuses here.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Jeremoot » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:57 pm

Let me rephrase my last post. The VP trinket / Creche are best if you already have expertise soft cap. Otherwise the Heart of Rage is the way to go.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:26 am

I've updated a bunch of the sims to include the Souldrinker proc (post-hotfix). There are still a few I need to run (Rotations and Enchants primarily), but those should be updated within a day or so.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:17 pm

All of the sims should be updated now. It looks like the model for Landslide wasn't taking into account Censure stacking anyhow, so no change was necessary.
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Re: Glossary

Postby madmessias » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:44 am

does Avenging Wrath change the way you should use Inquisition on singletarget? Since it's not much of a big increase, atm I am not using it at all during AW but got a feel that might be wrong, maybe only use it at 10 or more seconds (or perhaps 12, since that's how long Inq lasts)?
My reasoning to using it was you want to get as many finishers as possible off with the 20% buff.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Awyndel » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:43 am

Thnx for the quick updates after the hotfix Theck, you're the best.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:13 pm

theckhd wrote:It looks like the model for Landslide wasn't taking into account Censure stacking anyhow, so no change was necessary.

We've tested the triggers of LS/WW one year ago, and then I've periodically glanced at random logs to check any anomaly. To the best of my knowledge, the application of Censure never triggered LS/WW during Cataclysm. The model was and still is "working as intended". :P

madmessiah wrote:does Avenging Wrath change the way you should use Inquisition on singletarget? (I) Since it's not much of a big increase (II), atm I am not using it at all during AW but got a feel that might be wrong, maybe only use it at 10 or more seconds (or perhaps 12, since that's how long Inq lasts)?
My reasoning to using it was you want to get as many finishers as possible off with the 20% buff. (III)

I. No. Using Inq in single-target scenarios is good practice, with or without AW.
II. You're probably underestimating the impact of weaving Inq between SotR casts. The ~400 DPS difference you're seeing between queues 19 and 38 (link) scales with hit/exp, and doesn't take into account AW/BL/HoW "execute" phase.
III. Do keep in mind that in the 12s timespan you're getting at least 1 J, 4 Cens ticks, 13 SoT procs. All of them are affected by Inq. That's not even counting the occasional AS/HoW, I've only listed stuff that will certainly be there. Yeah, sure, SotR is supposed to be Prot's big hitter. That doesn't mean that Inq isn't trailing it, output-wise.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby madmessias » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:33 pm

tlitp wrote:
theckhd wrote:It looks like the model for Landslide wasn't taking into account Censure stacking anyhow, so no change was necessary.

We've tested the triggers of LS/WW one year ago, and then I've periodically glanced at random logs to check any anomaly. To the best of my knowledge, the application of Censure never triggered LS/WW during Cataclysm. The model was and still is "working as intended". :P

madmessiah wrote:does Avenging Wrath change the way you should use Inquisition on singletarget? (I) Since it's not much of a big increase (II), atm I am not using it at all during AW but got a feel that might be wrong, maybe only use it at 10 or more seconds (or perhaps 12, since that's how long Inq lasts)?
My reasoning to using it was you want to get as many finishers as possible off with the 20% buff. (III)

I. No. Using Inq in single-target scenarios is good practice, with or without AW.
II. You're probably underestimating the impact of weaving Inq between SotR casts. The ~400 DPS difference you're seeing between queues 19 and 38 (link) scales with hit/exp, and doesn't take into account AW/BL/HoW "execute" phase.
III. Do keep in mind that in the 12s timespan you're getting at least 1 J, 4 Cens ticks, 13 SoT procs. All of them are affected by Inq. That's not even counting the occasional AS/HoW, I've only listed stuff that will certainly be there. Yeah, sure, SotR is supposed to be Prot's big hitter. That doesn't mean that Inq isn't trailing it, output-wise.

kk, but what if it's like 1s left on AW, still shouldn't do a finisher (even without SD)?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:26 am

Prioritizing SotR (AW, no SD, no Inq) over Inq is not a good idea. It just doesn't hit hard enough (even with AW) to catch up the Inq-strengthened J/Cens/SoT. Again, I'm not even considering AS/HoW, which further widen the gap. To answer the question : No, you shouldn't use SotR unless it's affected by at least one of the SD/Inq couple. If it makes it any easier, just ignore AW and simply follow the regular priority queue (SDSotR>InqSotR>Inq>SotR). Obviously, under 20% you should use the slightly modified version (InqSotR>SDSotR).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Juugimus » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:44 am

To Theck and other theory crafters, I've been wondering what is more of a DPS gain, the two piece T12 prot bonus - +20% SotR or the two piece T13 ret bonus - judgment gives holy power.

Assuming hit capped and expertise soft capped.

I'm assuming the extra holy power keeping INQ up and granting more SotR uses would be, but I'm not sure.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:56 am

Answer: In general, at higher hit/exp the T12 bonus will be stronger. Here's a simple simulation of the tier bonus benefits for a variety of different hit/exp levels and rotations:
Code: Select all
939/SoT, 2% hit, 10 exp, SotR>CS>J>AS 
           T11   T12   T13   
prot 2pc   232   859     0   
ret 2pc      0   801   978   

939/SoT, 8% hit, 26 exp, SotR>CS>J>AS
           T11   T12    T13   
prot 2pc   276   1045     0   
ret 2pc      0    953   716   

939/SoT, 8% hit, 56 exp, SotR>CS>J>AS
           T11   T12    T13   
prot 2pc   300   1133     0   
ret 2pc      0   1034   360 


939/SoT, 2% hit, 10 exp, SotR>CS>AS+>J>AS                             
           T11   T12   T13   
prot 2pc   235   888     0   
ret 2pc      0   810   874   

939/SoT, 8% hit, 26 exp, SotR>CS>AS+>J>AS                             
           T11   T12    T13   
prot 2pc   284   1085     0   
ret 2pc      0    980   618   

939/SoT, 8% hit, 56 exp, SotR>CS>AS+>J>AS                             
           T11   T12    T13   
prot 2pc   311   1180     0   
ret 2pc      0   1073   270   


939/SoT, 2% hit, 10 exp, SotR>CS>AS+>J>AS>Cons
           T11   T12   T13   
prot 2pc   235   889     0   
ret 2pc      0   811   797   

939/SoT, 8% hit, 26 exp, SotR>CS>AS+>J>AS>Cons                             
           T11   T12    T13   
prot 2pc   284   1085     0   
ret 2pc      0    981   565   

939/SoT, 8% hit, 56 exp, SotR>CS>AS+>J>AS>Cons                             
           T11   T12    T13   
prot 2pc   312   1178     0   
ret 2pc      0   1075   314 


939/SoT, 2% hit, 10 exp, SotR>CS>AS+>J>AS>Cons>HW                             
           T11   T12   T13   
prot 2pc   236   890     0   
ret 2pc      0   813   634   

939/SoT, 8% hit, 26 exp, SotR>CS>AS+>J>AS>Cons>HW                             
           T11   T12    T13   
prot 2pc   285   1086     0   
ret 2pc      0    984   441   

939/SoT, 8% hit, 56 exp, SotR>CS>AS+>J>AS>Cons>HW                             
           T11   T12    T13   
prot 2pc   313   1179     0   
ret 2pc      0   1079   343   


939/SoT, 2% hit, 10 exp, ISotR>SDSotR>Inq>CS>J>AS                             
           T11   T12   T13   
prot 2pc   235   741      0   
ret 2pc      0   811   1173   

939/SoT, 8% hit, 26 exp, ISotR>SDSotR>Inq>CS>J>AS
           T11   T12   T13   
prot 2pc   277   942     0   
ret 2pc      0   957   868   

939/SoT, 8% hit, 56 exp, ISotR>SDSotR>Inq>CS>J>AS                             
           T11   T12    T13   
prot 2pc   300   1034     0   
ret 2pc      0   1034   462


939/SoT, 2% hit, 10 exp, ISotR>SDSotR>Inq>CS>J>AS>Cons                             
           T11   T12   T13   
prot 2pc   236   741      0   
ret 2pc      0   813   1107   

939/SoT, 8% hit, 26 exp, ISotR>SDSotR>Inq>CS>J>AS>Cons                             
           T11   T12   T13   
prot 2pc   280   939     0   
ret 2pc      0   966   852   

939/SoT, 8% hit, 56 exp, ISotR>SDSotR>Inq>CS>J>AS>Cons                             
           T11   T12    T13   
prot 2pc   305   1027     0   
ret 2pc      0   1053   570   


939/SoT, 2% hit, 10 exp, ISotR>SDSotR>Inq>CS>J>AS>Cons>HW                             
           T11   T12   T13   
prot 2pc   237   742     0   
ret 2pc      0   817   937   

939/SoT, 8% hit, 26 exp, ISotR>SDSotR>Inq>CS>J>AS>Cons>HW                             
           T11   T12   T13   
prot 2pc   283   940     0   
ret 2pc      0   977   694   

939/SoT, 8% hit, 56 exp, ISotR>SDSotR>Inq>CS>J>AS>Cons>HW                             
           T11   T12    T13   
prot 2pc   311   1028     0   
ret 2pc      0   1072   490


That's a lot of data to sift through, but you'll note that it's only at low hit/exp that the ret bonus gives a strong showing. By the time you reach hit cap and 26 expertise, it falls behind the T12 bonus. It's a more significant loss for the standard 939 rotations than the I39 rotations, presumably because the slight increase in HPG helps Inquisition uptime. But it's still a loss, either way. Note that this isn't factoring in the loss of STR; you'll have to add that in yourself (though provided you're using 391 T12, it's likely not a significant effect unless you're comparing to 410 T13). Based on the stat simulation, you could estimate STR to be about 1.8 DPS per point at 8% hit and 26 expertise.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Juugimus » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:15 am

Thanks Theck, that's exactly what i was looking for.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:25 am

An updated No'Kaled model unequivocally makes it the top DPS weapon, besting Souldrinker all around. Theck will provide some numbers later on.
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