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[10H] Spine of Deathwing

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[10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby timoseewho » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:15 pm

Hello, before my guild begins to shed tears on the spine fight on heroic (from what I've heard, it sucks), I just wanted to get some clarifications on the amalgamation debuffs, blood corruption death and earth, here they are:

Blood Corruption: Death-Deathwing's corruption courses through your veins. This corruption will take hold if it is not removed quickly, infecting the player with the Blood of Deathwing. When dispelled this effect jumps to a new target and can mutate into Blood Corruption: Earth.
-Blood of Deathwing-The blood of Deathwing explodes violently from your veins, inflicting 875000 Fire damage to you and several other players.
Blood Corruption: Earth-A shadow of Neltharion courses through your veins. This corruption will take hold if it is not removed quickly, infecting the player with the Blood of Neltharion. When dispelled this effect jumps to a new target and can mutate into Blood Corruption: Death.
-Blood of Neltharion-The barest hint of a shadow of the former Earth-Warder suffuses your blood. Damage taken from all sources is reduced by 10%. This effect can stack up to 3 times.

Do these debuffs just occur randomly throughout the fight? How do they work? How are they dealt with? I'm guessing the deaths should be dispelled instantly to roll the dice on turning into earths? And just leave the earths alone? How long does the neltharion buff last for? Are there any other general tips for the fight, like does this fight favor ranged, melee or whatnot? Is it a standard 2-tank and 3-heal fight? Thanks!
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Kishandra » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:24 pm

We haven't fully figured it out, but I -think- the debuffs are cast by the amalgs about fifteen or twenty seconds after they spawn - once and only once. This is why you see on so many spine kill videos that they burn three corruptions at the start, tank the amalgs for like 15 seconds, then roll them off, it's so they can provide a few more debuffs onto the raid.

You deal with them by spam dispelling death, and once it turns into earth, try to dispel it onto the tank(s) and let it expire on them, giving them blood of neltharion. Each earth adds two stacks of blood of neltharion, so try to get everyone two stacks of it before giving tanks the third stack if at all possible. The neltharion buff seemed to last for at least 15 min iirc. Basically, you make one of your healers in charge of dispelling this and he'll worry about it the entire fight, and it takes up maybe 10-15% of his time.

General tips:

Feral offtanks rule. A bearcat can still do a million damage (50k+ dps) to the tendon per lift and tank amalgs at the same time.
Rogues and mages kick ass on tendon damage, and mages rock fiery grip damage. Try to stack as many of these as you can, undergeared rogue/mage alts > main-geared warlocks/hunters/warriors.
Spirit link totem kicks ass for healing searing plasma. The totem is responsible for at least one third of the effective absorbed healing a shaman does on this fight, and shaman are already the best healer due to ancestral vigor, chain heal, and healing rain.
Aim to blow off each plate in two lifts. All cds are available on first plate, use pots for second, and hero for third.
Kill a bunch of bloods near the plate, so when the amalg is low, your offtank runs it across the residue and gets to 9 stack instantly, both saving damage on the tank, and only pulsing the fire aura once or twice per lift.

I'm not sure how the comp is on 10m, but if you were to use the same ratios as 25m, you'd have 2 healers, 1 main blood tank, 1 offtank for amalgs, and 6 dps. Although, if you don't have access to a feral, you'll probably have to 1 tank the thing and jump through a lot more hoops because killing the tendon in two lifts is a real dps check. At least for 25m, the average dps on the tendon needs to achieve 55k avg dps for 20 seconds on a fully clean target switch per dpser to two-round the tendon. You also have to take into account that some classes who you bring along for synergy (a demo warlock is usually chosen) and buffs will generally be unable to hit more than 40k give or take, so you'll need your rogues and mages to hit 70k+ dps to carry the low performers.

Of course, it's always possible that 10m spine is as much of a "dps check" as 10m ultraxion, in which case, you can ignore the above and bring whatever you want, lol.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby rijn dael » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:16 pm

We had a few uh, experiences with this last night.

I hate sucking the bottom of the tendon dps (demo :() - our tanks don't bring much dps either (war/pally)

Our best attempts were reaching 55-60% on the first 'round' - and never getting a two-round tendon kill. Any tricks to gaining access to the tendon earlier? For a 23sec 'cast', we seem to only be able to target it approximately 16sec before the end - using /tar boss2 style macros.

Our dps ranged from 20k (me) to the 35k range on the tendons, and that is being somewhat kind.
Is there some huge optimisation that we are missing? On sustained dps, everyone in the raid sits 40-45k on ultrax, so I believe they should at least be capable of pulling 95% of what others are - not 50-70%
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby madmessias » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:14 pm

Kishandra wrote:We haven't fully figured it out, but I -think- the debuffs are cast by the amalgs about fifteen or twenty seconds after they spawn - once and only once. This is why you see on so many spine kill videos that they burn three corruptions at the start, tank the amalgs for like 15 seconds, then roll them off, it's so they can provide a few more debuffs onto the raid.

You deal with them by spam dispelling death, and once it turns into earth, try to dispel it onto the tank(s) and let it expire on them, giving them blood of neltharion. Each earth adds two stacks of blood of neltharion, so try to get everyone two stacks of it before giving tanks the third stack if at all possible. The neltharion buff seemed to last for at least 15 min iirc. Basically, you make one of your healers in charge of dispelling this and he'll worry about it the entire fight, and it takes up maybe 10-15% of his time.

General tips:

Feral offtanks rule. A bearcat can still do a million damage (50k+ dps) to the tendon per lift and tank amalgs at the same time.
Rogues and mages kick ass on tendon damage, and mages rock fiery grip damage. Try to stack as many of these as you can, undergeared rogue/mage alts > main-geared warlocks/hunters/warriors.
Spirit link totem kicks ass for healing searing plasma. The totem is responsible for at least one third of the effective absorbed healing a shaman does on this fight, and shaman are already the best healer due to ancestral vigor, chain heal, and healing rain.
Aim to blow off each plate in two lifts. All cds are available on first plate, use pots for second, and hero for third.
Kill a bunch of bloods near the plate, so when the amalg is low, your offtank runs it across the residue and gets to 9 stack instantly, both saving damage on the tank, and only pulsing the fire aura once or twice per lift.

I'm not sure how the comp is on 10m, but if you were to use the same ratios as 25m, you'd have 2 healers, 1 main blood tank, 1 offtank for amalgs, and 6 dps. Although, if you don't have access to a feral, you'll probably have to 1 tank the thing and jump through a lot more hoops because killing the tendon in two lifts is a real dps check. At least for 25m, the average dps on the tendon needs to achieve 55k avg dps for 20 seconds on a fully clean target switch per dpser to two-round the tendon. You also have to take into account that some classes who you bring along for synergy (a demo warlock is usually chosen) and buffs will generally be unable to hit more than 40k give or take, so you'll need your rogues and mages to hit 70k+ dps to carry the low performers.

Of course, it's always possible that 10m spine is as much of a "dps check" as 10m ultraxion, in which case, you can ignore the above and bring whatever you want, lol.

How do you get "Blood of Deathwing"? It explodes for 875k so obviously want to avoid it.

How does Spirit link totem work so good then? I don't really see how.. :p but im obviously missing something.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Kishandra » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:47 pm

A lot of it has to deal with class. A balance druid, warlock, warrior, hunter, unholy dk, etc. (any class that has any sort of reliance on dots) is not going to be doing anywhere close to their maximum. Any class with a significant dps cooldown is going to be pretty overpowered.

There's a reason the first kills (and second, and third, and fourth, etc.) have used ~12 rogues (shadow dance) and mages (arcane power/combustion) in their kill comps.

You can't target the burning tendon for the first 4-5 seconds of its cast, the earliest I've ever managed to target the thing while spamming a target macro is at 19 seconds left, with the vast majority at 18 sec left. There's no real trick to doing more dps, just lots of practice, the right classes, and mashing buttons.

For comparison, in 25m, we need to do 19.5 million to the tendons per lift to 2-round it, which comes out to be about 1.1 mil per player, and you have about 18 seconds to do so. Here's roughly our damage on tendon per lift average:

Fire mage - 1.36 mil (legendary)
Subt Rogue - 1.32 mil
Arcane mage - 1.16 mil (some legendary, some not)
Shadow priest - 1.08 mil (legendary)
Feral druid - 1.02 mil
Ret paladin - 1.01 mil
Frost dk - 0.97 mil
Ele shaman - 0.92 mil (legendary)
Demo warlock - 0.65 mil (legendary, lol)

The ones we sit:

Balance druid - 0.86 mil (legendary)
Warrior (forgot what spec) - 0.82 mil
Enh shaman - 0.72 mil
Destro warlock - 0.71 mil (legendary)
Unholy dk - 0.81 mil
BM Hunter - 0.75 mil (other hunter specs all lower)

1.1 mil in 18 seconds is 60k dps, and even then you actually want a bit higher so you can consistently get the tendon to 40-45% per round so you have a bit of leeway.

Obviously, depending on player skill and gear, your raid may or may not match these numbers precisely, but I think they give a relatively good idea of what classes are good and what classes aren't for this fight. Blizzard really screwed up here - relative dps balance is fairly ok for long fights, but for bursts? Ridiculously unfair.

Protip - have all your dps get revered hyjal trinkets or the current valor trinket. Those are actually fairly huge for dps increases, I know my trinket raised my damage by about 100-150k per tendon lift compared to what I normally use.

Edit: checked and apparently tendon hp was about 10% higher than I thought it was on 25m.
Last edited by Kishandra on Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Kishandra » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:06 pm

madmessias wrote:How do you get "Blood of Deathwing"? It explodes for 875k so obviously want to avoid it.

How does Spirit link totem work so good then? I don't really see how.. :p but im obviously missing something.


This is the way I understand how these debuffs work:

When blood corruption: death expires on someone, raid wipes.
When blood corruption: earth expires on someone, that person gets 2 stacks of a 10% damage reduction buff.

Amalgs spit out a debuff, it generally starts off as blood corruption: death.
Every time you cleanse it, it jumps to another player and it has a chance to morph into Earth.
Once it morphs into earth, you can still dispel it and it will jump.
HOWEVER, very important - dispelling earth will never change it back to death again, it will stay as earth.
So keep dispelling earth until you get it onto a tank, then let it expire.

As for spirit link, here's how it works (let me give you an example with 2 people, one debuff and one not.)

Player A: No debuff, at 200k hp.
Player B: has debuff, at 100k hp.

Spirit link is dropped.
1st tick - spirit link damages player A for 50k, 20k resisted, heals player B for 50k.
10k of raid healing goes out in this tick.
Player A now at 180k, Player B still at 100k (but got healed for 50).
2nd tick - spirit link damages player A for 40k, 15k resisted, heals player B for 40k.
etc.

Now, consider that the ticks happen every second, or multiple times a second, and there's 9-24 other people to take hp from to heal the debuffed person, you can see how spirit link does a crapton of healing to the debuff target.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby madmessias » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:27 pm

Kishandra wrote:
madmessias wrote:How do you get "Blood of Deathwing"? It explodes for 875k so obviously want to avoid it.

How does Spirit link totem work so good then? I don't really see how.. :p but im obviously missing something.


This is the way I understand how these debuffs work:

When blood corruption: death expires on someone, raid wipes.
When blood corruption: earth expires on someone, that person gets 2 stacks of a 10% damage reduction buff.

Amalgs spit out a debuff, it generally starts off as blood corruption: death.
Every time you cleanse it, it jumps to another player and it has a chance to morph into Earth.
Once it morphs into earth, you can still dispel it and it will jump.
HOWEVER, very important - dispelling earth will never change it back to death again, it will stay as earth.
So keep dispelling earth until you get it onto a tank, then let it expire.

As for spirit link, here's how it works (let me give you an example with 2 people, one debuff and one not.)

Player A: No debuff, at 200k hp.
Player B: has debuff, at 100k hp.

Spirit link is dropped.
1st tick - spirit link damages player A for 50k, 20k resisted, heals player B for 50k.
10k of raid healing goes out in this tick.
Player A now at 180k, Player B still at 100k (but got healed for 50).
2nd tick - spirit link damages player A for 40k, 15k resisted, heals player B for 40k.
etc.

Now, consider that the ticks happen every second, or multiple times a second, and there's 9-24 other people to take hp from to heal the debuffed person, you can see how spirit link does a crapton of healing to the debuff target.

ah thanks, will definitely redirect all of this to my guild :)
About breaking the corruptions, how? Is it based on dmg? Amount of hits, etc?
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Kishandra » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:36 pm

Based on damage. It will stop grips once it takes something like 18% of its hp in damage. A good number to aim for is to nuke it 25% each time it grips, that way you can kill it just as the amalg blows up, preventing any grips during the lift phase. It's obviously very important to not overkill it by too much, otherwise you end up with a second amalg. That's more or less instant wipe unless you get very, very lucky.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby rijn dael » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:18 pm

Good point on the trinket for our dps - not sure if our other dps are all using clicky trinkets, I am using mwc, so it doesn't get much better there.

10h is 12.6m iirc (per tendon)
Assuming 2 tanks + 3 healers are about 1 dps worth (sans feral) -
( 12.6m / 2 'rounds' ) / 6 'dps' = 1.05m damage per 'dps'.
Given 17-18seconds at best, that is 58-62k average - or 65-70k to reach 45% in the first round.

We have a mage, a rogue.. and... uh... a ret alt? /cry
Last edited by rijn dael on Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby madmessias » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:29 pm

Kishandra wrote:Based on damage. It will stop grips once it takes something like 18% of its hp in damage. A good number to aim for is to nuke it 25% each time it grips, that way you can kill it just as the amalg blows up, preventing any grips during the lift phase. It's obviously very important to not overkill it by too much, otherwise you end up with a second amalg. That's more or less instant wipe unless you get very, very lucky.

How will that end you up with a second Amalgation? Should just be one extra, right? Also, if you kill it as the tendonphase starts, won't that give you two extra tentacles (that will do the grip?)
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby rijn dael » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:31 pm

You (ideally) kill the corruption just as you enter tendon phase, and tank the amalg spawn. If the corruption dies early you will have a new corruption up for the burn (grip during burn = wipe), or be forced to kill the corruption before the burn (which = two amalgs up).

(Corruptions will not grip till after the debuff goes out - or at least for a fair while after they spawn).
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby madmessias » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:38 pm

rijn dael wrote:You (ideally) kill the corruption just as you enter tendon phase, and tank the amalg spawn. If the corruption dies early you will have a new corruption up for the burn (grip during burn = wipe), or be forced to kill the corruption before the burn (which = two amalgs up).

(Corruptions will not grip till after the debuff goes out - or at least for a fair while after they spawn).

Thanks, lol sorry for asking to many questions, but how much health does the corruption have? Figured we can just have our arcane mage do 2x ABs on it .... maybe?
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby rijn dael » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:41 pm

edit:
10h mobs:

12.6m tendon
801k corruption
290k blood
Last edited by rijn dael on Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Kishandra » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:02 am

madmessias wrote:
Kishandra wrote:Based on damage. It will stop grips once it takes something like 18% of its hp in damage. A good number to aim for is to nuke it 25% each time it grips, that way you can kill it just as the amalg blows up, preventing any grips during the lift phase. It's obviously very important to not overkill it by too much, otherwise you end up with a second amalg. That's more or less instant wipe unless you get very, very lucky.

How will that end you up with a second Amalgation? Should just be one extra, right? Also, if you kill it as the tendonphase starts, won't that give you two extra tentacles (that will do the grip?)


I meant, in that if you kill a corruption before you lift the plate, you now have two amalgs running around, and it'll be very hard to control which gets the residue and which doesn't, and even if you do get lucky, you'll have to have grip happen on a mage/paladin who can iceblock/bubble it during the tendon phase, otherwise you're screwed for that tendon.

If you kill a corruption just as the tendon phase starts, a (single) new corruption will spawn. It will do the grip - but not before the tendon phase is over.

For anyone doing 25m reading this, the timing is slightly different, in 25m grips happen every 15ish seconds, so you actually have to break a grip to get it low, start the tendon phase, then have dots kill it/nuke it during the tendon phase to prevent too much dps downtime due to grip stun.

And for what it's worth, in 25m, we have our 6 arcane mages try to do a combined 10 arcane blasts on the corruption to break grip. I'm not sure 2 blasts from your mage alone is enough to break it, and then you'll need a backup for when the mage is gripped, etc. I'd suggest using at least 2 designated breakers.

Looking at those numbers, I'm guessing for a 10m you really have to 2 heal the thing, or 3 heal with one tank, or 3 heal with 2 tanks, 1 of them being feral. Bad luck in not having a good comp for the fight :(
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Re: [10H] Spine of Deathwing

Postby Kitmajere » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:46 am

Most 10 man kills 3 heal, 2 tank (non-feral). There's only been one 1 tank parse/video that I've encountered so far (although I have not been as anal about checking videos this week). Make sure that 2 of the 3 healers are all-out dpsing the tendon, preferably one being a disc priest so some healing is going out from them at the same time. A rogue is huge for tricks on your other good dps, as are 1.5 min or less clicky trinkets of your primary stat.

Does anyone have advice for add pickup during the tendon reveal? I'm struggling between worrying about them smacking healers/whoever is closest and trying to do the required dps on the tendon. Even if people stand close to the armor plate, it seems that HotR off the tendon doesn't really grab their attention. In general their aggro seems a bit wonky during that phase (or maybe tidy plates is being broken). How are you positioning yourselves?

Also, how are people gearing/speccing/reforging (as the blood tank)? Which trinkets? I was currently running the TB trinket for the fire aoe pulses and the rolls, but I'm not sure that is actually very useful. I'm rather underwhelmed with the Beth trinket in general anymore. Maybe once I iron out positioning for add pickup a bit more I'll focus on my dps and use the hyjal mast/str clicky. I'm basically wondering how much I'll be in danger later in the fight or if I should focus on helping meet the dps checks until I have to begin kiting.
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