Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:22 am

Fenrìr wrote:Yea, I just got caught up on the paladin stuff over at EJ. It is a bit sickening at how much it was nerfed. Hopefully I get the axe from Yor'sahj this week over the trials (yea right...I'm a tank, luls).


If it helps, the sword is still pretty wildly BiS IIRC.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Flex » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:30 am

warden wrote:- The community moderators don't all understand the difference between Seal of Truth and Censure.


Pretty sure the same issue cropped up with the axe from the Bonestorm!!!! guy. I believe it is the application of Censure upon the target that is counted as the melee attack (my logs show misses Censure which isn't possible with a DoT), not the proc of Seal of Truth damage. So it isn't that they don't understand it just that, as always, Paladin mechanics are goofy.

Seal of Truth: Name of the self buff. Name of the Direct Damage weapon attack.
Censure: Name of the secondary attack you do when SoT is active that stacks the same named Censure DoT.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:00 pm

I'm going to wait to see just how much this weapon is consider 'bis' after this nerf.

Kisko, over on MMO, made this interesting analysis.

Post-nerf tentacles of Normal Gurthalak do on average 1221 dps.

Now, the HM Slicer has
+75 STR = 242 dps
+63.2 Wdps = 687 dps
+362 Crit = 690 dps
+347 Mastery = 692 dps
Total = 2311 dps

Yes, HM Gurthalak is beating HM Slicer, Wdps counts, but Normal? There is no question about it.

After similar number crunching for normals, here is our current weapon rankings:

HM Gurthalak > HM Slicer > HM Ataraxis > HM Sulfuras > Gurthalak > Slicer > Ataraxis > LFR Gurthalak > LFR Slicer > LFR Ataraxis
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:00 pm

Thanks for posting this; its definately good information. I'll be interested to see if Exemplar arrives at a similar conclusion.

Edit:
Exemplar arrives at the following:

Gur'thalak is not dead. Sky is not falling. Mars does not need women. Please return to your normally scheduled programs.

At an average 8.5 ticks per proc the rankings go (back to):
Normal DS Weapons < LFR Gur < Heroic Sulfuras < Heroic DS Weapons < Normal Gur < Heroic Gur.

Normal Gur remains ahead of Heroic Scalpel or Cudgel by about 500 DPS.

That's at an average 8.5 ticks. Looking at the logs linked above I'm still seeing an average of 8.5 ticks, even though the proc supposedly lasts an additional 2 seconds (previously 10, now 12). Even at 9 ticks flat the rankings order would not change (though all classes with Gur would do a bit more DPS).

As for Gur proccing from Rend ticks for Warriors - we have to suck it up this time. TAiaJ procced abnormally high for Ret compared to other classes. Item imbalances occur. We got the short end of the stick this time, which is a shame, but just because we're not the one accidentally stronger should not be a reason for us to complain. I'm of the opinion that forum complaints about another class and requests to correct/nerf them serve no one - they don't increase our capabilities and only hurt raiding as a whole. This is why I've always pushed to let Blizzard know when something procs too much/little - better they fix it and get numbers where they want than leave it and "fix" something else and accidentally destroy a class (which has happened at times).

Edit:
Confirmed - Rend does not proc. Doesn't change the point of the above paragraph, so it will not be altered.


http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t110342-ret ... ost2073404

I just finished running about 400k sim runs myself... I'll post what I discover later.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:22 pm

I don't think Kisko will agree with Exemplar. I cut off the first part of his post in which he negates Exemplar's spreadsheet and whatnot.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:54 pm

I don't doubt it... Not everyone does. I prefer simcraft over Exemplar's spreadsheet myself (don't like his haste modeling), but neither is proven conclusively right. I'll be rolling on the next H Specimen that drops just in case. I'm really hoping Blizzard comes to their senses, reverts the changes, and then fixes the sword, hopefully with a reasonable ICD, but we'll see.

Also, I was getting about 1400 dps for the post-nerf tentacles from Gurth, but only had time to run about 450k cycles on simcraft. Interesting stuff though:

Conditions: Sim lengths 450+/- 90 seconds, patchwerk, all applicable buffs, no significant latency.
My results (all of these were simmed in that class/spec's BiS gear):

Arms: 2451 dps/9.8 average procs/run
Fury (dual-wield): 6570 dps/32.3 average procs/run
Pre-nerf Ret: 1966 dps/8.0 average procs/run***
Post-nerf Ret: 1490 dps/5.9 average procs/run***
Unholy: 3741 dps/8.1 average procs/run
My ret spec/gear: 1720 dps/8.8 average procs/run***

*** I'm not sure how much I trust these, so I hesitate to post them elsewhere... Those ret numbers just seem a LOT lower than what I see in logs for myself and Ana. The arms numbers also seem a bit low.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Fenrìr » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:42 am

So another thing that I have been reading is that with this change of SoT not being considered a melee hit, how is affecting our trinkets such as Eye of Unmaking, etc?
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:47 am

I've had no issue with Eye or Vessel stacks, but those were never hard to build/maintain anyway. Pliers and others were reporting problems with AoK (I don't use it on the fights I was doing the last two nights), and some posters on EJ, Official Forums and MMO Champion were talking about possible reductions in Landslide and proccing-trinket uptime along with AoK. I'll take a peek at the logs from the last couple nights and see if I can determine anything. I'd also appreciate anyone with a Bone-Link Fettesh to look at theirs and post the results.

Edit: Data on this is being updated fairly quickly on EJ. Current analysis there tends to indicate that trinkets and Landslide are not affected, with the possible exception of AoK. Most of my information is coming from the EJ Ret thread; I'm going to link it below for those interested in keeping up to date to avoid bumping this thread 3-4 times/day.

http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t110342-ret ... ost2074254
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Firas » Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:40 am

For one brief and glorious night, ghost crawlers life work had been reverted.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Schroom » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:03 am

yes, damn I missed it, but I can imagine, seeing logs like this: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-8 ... #Theepally.

1.7 Million DPS. A wet dream ^^
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Levantine » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:03 am

I can imagine many accidentally dead Paladins is what I can imagine. O:
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Schroom » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:12 am

why dead? it's easy to tank such extremes. the ret gets to aggrocap pretty fast, and then, as a tank you only have to taunt and can't lose aggro anymore.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Levantine » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:49 am

How often have you needed to taunt a boss at the beginning of the fight this expansion? Unless you'd already heard about the bug or you're a bad tank that taunts at the beginning of the pull I can see your ret paladin dieing in the confusion the first time.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby RedAces » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:51 am

Aggro is divided by 10 in Dragon Soul - so you need to do 20m damage before the aggro cap...
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Schroom » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:27 am

which was about 10 seconds with the bug.

and NO we don't have a Ret Pally in our raid, and I haven't experienced the bug first hand. just saying, if ever seeing that I lose aggro, my first reflex is to press "1" which is my taunt.
agreed und er normal circumstances I didn't need to taunt at the beginning of a fight in a long time. (except for some stupid dps pulls) but the refelxes are still there.

and as soon as the bug is known. the ret pulls up righteous fury gets external CDs and get easy tank for 10 to 15 seconds, at which point aggro cap would be reached considering the log above.
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