Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:38 am

cerwillis wrote:
Flex wrote:
cerwillis wrote:Because when you are in the military, you don't get the luxury of a moral decision when ordered to kill, it's not up to you, you do it, or you get court-martialed.


Only for lawful orders. If you are ordered to kill non-combatant civilians you have the right refuse to obey the order.

I would be interested to know how often this happens in the US military and what the fallout for the individual typically ends up being. I can't imagine it happens very often, but I don't suppose that I would know if it did.


It happens every now and then, but for obvious reasons we do our best to prevent situations where an order would have to be refused from arising in the first place.
It's kind of a risky move to refuse an order on grounds of challenging it's legality, so you better be damned sure you're right. Fortunately, the rules on what constitutes a lawful order are extremely clear-cut.

The main point is to prevent the occurrence of war crimes due to the "Nazi Effect", where everybody just kind of goes along with something messed up thinking that it is too systemic for them personally to be held accountable for participating and them just claiming "I was just following orders".
This system makes it clear that you are accountable for your actions no matter what. And most potentially messed up stuff get's nipped in the bud merely by the knowledge that your orders can be challenged, and that fact giving you pause to reflect on whether what you are doing is truly moral.

The moral ambiguities with insurgency and unconventional warfare in Iraq and Afghanistan have made today's military really emphasize the Thinking Soldier, because the "strategic Corporal" often has to make quick decisions that have broad ramifications in an environment filled with shades of gray. A huge amount of training and group mentorship and discussion is devoted within units to developing our warriors' moral framework.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby cerwillis » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:44 am

Fridmarr wrote:You shouldn't ever be ordered to attack non lawful combatants but mistakes do rarely happen. Even friendly fire event occur on occasion.

I understand your point that military action isn't generally a last resort sort of thing, but it's an entirely different sort of thing than the case we are discussing.

I still don't think we know enough to give specific judgements on this case though, just hypotheticals.

I don't take issue with much of what has been said since my initial comment, and I realize that I am describing different situations. However, I do have to take issue when an active duty service member claims to have a strong moral stance on right and wrong times to kill. I gather that Brekkie doesn't launch cruise missiles for a living, but if he did, it would not be up to him to evaluate the target first. Push the button, or GTFO. I would assume that in many cases, those decisions are made strategically, not because there was imminent danger of loss of life.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Eltiana » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:48 am

Brekkie wrote:You BETTER think about what is enough. Apply that defense to, say, a rape case, and see how terrible that logic is. "Well, you see your honor, I was just in the moment, and adrenaline was pumping, and I wasn't thinking logically about where to stop or what was inappropriate or unethical. So you can't hold me accountable for my actions."

And your movie metaphor just has me baffled. It has no comparison. Beyond the fallacy of comparing behavior in movies to real life, the behavior you describe isn't inherently illogical like the topic. If you shoot at someone in the first place, it's because they were worth killing. And if they were worth killing, they are worth ensuring they die. You can't make anyone "Too" dead.

I'm not talking about the bully, I'm talking about the kid who stabbed him. The excess of stab wounds is obviously due to adrenaline. I'm sure the kid at the time wasn't thinking about how many stabs is 'enough', he was being attacked and responded. Your rape comparison doesn't make sense at all, because your point of view is from the attacker while mine is from the one being attacked.

You both say you can't make someone 'too dead', and yet you're also saying 12 stabs is excessive? The kid was being attacked, felt his life was in danger, and responded. In using the knife, he obviously felt the other kid was 'worth killing' thus 'worth ensuring they die'.

I'm not trying to say whether what was done was right or wrong, I'm just trying to say that while excessive, it's not illogical the kid stabbed the other kid 12 times, due to adrenaline.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:53 am

Brekkie wrote:
Exactly. Because rape is a more serious crime. A crime much more proportional with deadly force in self-defense.

This isn't. Not even close.

According to the article, there were 12 stabs to the chest, two of which were mortal wounds, and one of which pierced the heart. There were all kinds of kids around who were witnessing this, and I somehow doubt they would have just stood around if the kid was choking him out or something actually life-threatening. But who is gonna interfere once there is a knife involved and he's going all jack the ripper on the bully?

Are you kidding me? How many schoolyard fights have other kids joining in? None I've been in. They'd rather form a circle around the two people fighting rather than join in. The number one problem with people watching an altercation is that everyone thinks someone ELSE will do something, and yet no one ever reacts because they're all thinking the exact same thing.


I was bullied a lot when I was younger. I was undersized for my age till later in high school, and almost ALL of the time it was 3 v 1. If it was 1 v 1 no tools/weapons involved I would stand up for myself, but my experience with 3 v 1 = 2 people allow 1 to hold each of my arms while the third winds up for a really nice punch or other blow. I did once face a situation in the early morning when I was bullied before class, and once I determined that nobody was going to pile on, I choked my attacker (I was 5'2" 90 lbs at the time and he was like 5'7" 130 maybe). Somehow NO faculty witnessed it despite us being 40' from the faculty lounge, ut that kid was more cautious around me after that.

I think the kids WAS justified in being concerned over the presence of the other two boys and the punch to the back of the head is overly aggressive and DOES justify pulling a knife. That said, 12 wounds from the knife makes me very nervous depening on how they were delivered and what the condition of the other boy was during that part of the altercation. If the assailant just suffered 10 knicks and continued to press the fight, I could sadly understand a couple more solid stabs. It just seems more likely that after a couple knife wounds the attacker was down and the kid with the knife went postal on him, which is something that should not be let off.

I didn't read the article, but a 3" blade sounds like a butterfly knife to me, which is clearly a weapon. Presumably he thought that having it would disuade further agression from the bully and his cohorts.

Also, as far as reporting such violence to school authorities. GET A CLUE. THAT NEVER WORKS OUT FOR A BULLYING VICTIM IN HIGH SCHOOL. Trust me, the bully jsuu comes back, and is likely to follow you home to get around authorities. I did once face a situation in which 3 people picked on me in homeroom in Jr high and one punched me to the gut. Of course I was the only one initially sent to the Principal's office where I did truthfully relate everything. The other boys were questioned (all much bigger than me back then) and the one that threw the punch was suspended for like 3 days. After his suspension he found me at the bus stop trying to get home, I tried to run, but he cornered me. Knowing what was coming anyways, I spit in his face before he could punch me. Somehow, his buss was leaving and another student on the bus called out to him to that fact and he left me instead of turning me into a meat bag.

Another time 3 bullies actually rode their bikes and found me at the bottom of MY driveway and assaulted me. Has going to the teacher EVER solved anything for me? NO NO NO
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:55 am

As far as adrenaline, look at police officers. People trained to be restrianed in the use of force do sometimes, empty their clip on a defenseless person (like sleeping in their car), so I can see a little adrenailine, but depending on the way the 12 stabs came about it does seem excessive.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:59 am

“This court concludes that the defendant was in a place where he had a right to be and was not acting unlawfully. He Had more than enough reason to believe he was in danger of death or great bodily harm,” the judge's ruling read. “Under current Florida law, the defendant had no duty to retreat... The defendant was under attack from the first punch to the back of his head until he stabbed Dylan Nuno.”


This seems pretty cut and dry to me. I'm not sure what the debate here is actually about? Has someone in this thread actually gone through all the presented evidence to come up with a different judgement or something?
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Kelaan » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:02 pm

Jeremoot wrote:I think the controversial word here is "bully" which makes it sound like the kid was being pushed around on the playground. In reality, he was probably on the ground being whaled on by somebody much larger than him which is why the judge ruled self defense.

People have commented on this a bit, and on whether being armed (and using it with lethal results) was reasonable.

I was bullied fairly consistently, though mostly not severely, all through elementary and junior high school. It isn't an isolated incident, often -- the incident that has the violence is usually the culmination of a long period of time where a person has been baiting you, picking on you, and hurting you in ways which are small enough that an individual instance can be passed up as harmless. In your mind, the bully is absolutely a predator, looking for a way to hurt you in whatever way they can get away with.

In one instance, I was hit (hard) directly in the back of the head (where the neck meets the skull) with the spine of a math book during math class. The teacher didn't see it, and I couldn't prove who did it as everyone had been ostensibly doing some busywork. That day I went home and blacked out for two hours. (One of the scariest memories I have.) If one of those kids (who had been sitting directly behind me, and had been bullying me for months) had at a later date pursued me after school and then assaulted me, I would absolutely have feared for my safety and life.

There was a period where I thought very carefully about how far I would be willing to go in hurting them to ensure that I'd stay safe, and I realized that (at the time) I felt I pretty much would have to maim them in a decisive fashion that would render them incapable of hurting me -- though I never felt killing was OK. Still, thank god their bullying never escalated that far again, and thank god I was never armed. In retrospect it seems ludicrous, but when you are the victim of constant bullying you very much feel like prey, and defensive action starts to sound very appealing. As Hrobertgar points out, "reasonable" force isn't going to happen when bullies pick on you, and they only respect force.

I'm not saying that this applies in this case, as I don't think we know the degree of the bullying ... but as someone pointed out, the kid tried to run away, left the fight, etc. When someone leaves the fight and calls no-joy, you don't pursue them. (Jeez, it's like these kids never saw Top Gun! ;)) Someone doing that would seem significantly more threatening to me.

One thing I read in an article about using a gun for personal/home defense was that one should continue shooting an attacker until they are no longer clearly a threat - not merely once. Shoot them until they are down and not threatening, and then stop. I can see the same logic being applicable to a knife, sadly.


.... thank God I've never been in that sort of situation. /shudder.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby RedAces » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:10 pm

So this kid was bullied multiple times, he showed his bullier (correct word?) his knife in order to tell him "Back off!", he flew from him and the attacker still chased him and hit him on the back of the head despite him knowing his victim was armed.
He couldnt flee anymore since he may be confused and clearly the attacker caught up with him the first time so he reacted. He overreacted yeah, but the attacker saw it coming from miles away.

Doesn't make it right or good or anything but this whole situation is so sad really... that something like this has to happen before some people take a clue. I really don't think Brekkie childhood memories are any better... fist fight till blood and stitches and what-not? What kind of society do you have ? wtf! We had some bullies on our school yeah, but NEVER violence, never more than a little chase without punching / hitting / whatnot ...
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:18 pm

Kelaan wrote:One thing I read in an article about using a gun for personal/home defense was that one should continue shooting an attacker until they are no longer clearly a threat - not merely once. Shoot them until they are down and not threatening, and then stop. I can see the same logic being applicable to a knife, sadly.


Absolutely. Unless you have significant training in fighting with your weapon of choice, you cannot shoot to do anything but kill. Someone who has never fired a gun in their life can't just aim to wound/disable the way people do in the movies or the way that someone who has spent significant amount of time training with that gun in actual combat situations can. You have to aim for center mass and fire as many shots as possible to ensure you actually hit something. Same thing applies to a knife. You have to attack until the threat is no longer a threat, otherwise you've probably just killed yourself when your assailant disarms you or escalates his own response.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:18 pm

RedAces wrote:He couldnt flee anymore since he may be confused and clearly the attacker caught up with him the first time so he reacted. He overreacted yeah, but the attacker saw it coming from miles away.


I think he reacted exactly correctly.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby bldavis » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:22 pm

Hrobertgar wrote:I didn't read the article, but a 3" blade sounds like a butterfly knife to me, which is clearly a weapon. Presumably he thought that having it would disuade further agression from the bully and his cohorts.


the article doesnt say what kind of knife, only that he stabbed the kid 12 times in the chest and abdomen
and 2 were deep enough to nick the heart

and 3" is the biggest blade on any swiss army knife ive seen
most that kids have, those little 1 blade and scissors ones, have a 1/5" blade iirc

if the attacker was shown the knife, and still came after the kid.....
well i hate to say it, but he deserved getting it pulled on him

the darwin award goes to....!


but having a knife pulled on you and being stabbed to death are completely different things
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:32 pm

RedAces wrote:So this kid was bullied multiple times, he showed his bullier (correct word?) his knife in order to tell him "Back off!", he flew from him and the attacker still chased him and hit him on the back of the head despite him knowing his victim was armed.
He couldnt flee anymore since he may be confused and clearly the attacker caught up with him the first time so he reacted. He overreacted yeah, but the attacker saw it coming from miles away.

Doesn't make it right or good or anything but this whole situation is so sad really... that something like this has to happen before some people take a clue. I really don't think Brekkie childhood memories are any better... fist fight till blood and stitches and what-not? What kind of society do you have ? wtf! We had some bullies on our school yeah, but NEVER violence, never more than a little chase without punching / hitting / whatnot ...
I don't think there's any indication that the attacker saw or knew about the knife. The kid showed the knife to his friends but I haven't read that the attacker knew about it. If the attacker knew about the knife and still pursued the kid then what did he expect?
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:36 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
“This court concludes that the defendant was in a place where he had a right to be and was not acting unlawfully. He Had more than enough reason to believe he was in danger of death or great bodily harm,” the judge's ruling read. “Under current Florida law, the defendant had no duty to retreat... The defendant was under attack from the first punch to the back of his head until he stabbed Dylan Nuno.”


This seems pretty cut and dry to me. I'm not sure what the debate here is actually about? Has someone in this thread actually gone through all the presented evidence to come up with a different judgement or something?

The debate is whether or not the judge's opinion was right. Obviously the DA didn't think so since he filed second degree murder charges against the kid.

Without being privy to the witness testimony that the judge heard it's really hard to speculate though.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby katraya » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:37 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
“This court concludes that the defendant was in a place where he had a right to be and was not acting unlawfully. He Had more than enough reason to believe he was in danger of death or great bodily harm,” the judge's ruling read. “Under current Florida law, the defendant had no duty to retreat... The defendant was under attack from the first punch to the back of his head until he stabbed Dylan Nuno.”


This seems pretty cut and dry to me. I'm not sure what the debate here is actually about? Has someone in this thread actually gone through all the presented evidence to come up with a different judgement or something?


Shhh, your logic has no place here.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Amirya » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:47 pm

Brekkie wrote:Because rape is a more serious crime. A crime much more proportional with deadly force in self-defense.

This has been bothering me all morning.

If we agree that the definition of rape is "non-consensual sexual intercourse" without going into the circumstances of what happened, then doesn't it stand to reason that deadly force may, in fact, not be the appropriate response?

Roofies typically don't involve non-sexual violence. If the victim comes to in the middle, and proceeds to stab the assailant twelve times, would you be ok with this? Since it's a "more serious crime" and "much more proportional with deadly force"?

If the victim is being punched repeatedly, would you be ok with it still?

What about if the assailant hit them in the back of the head first?

I just don't understand why self defense with deadly force during a rape is ok, but self defense with deadly force during a non-rape physical assault isn't.

It isn't like the bully walked up to the kid, slapped him across the face and call his mother a cunt, then walked away - only to wind up bleeding dead in the street. And this wasn't the first time it happened. So the kid knew exactly how far the bully liked to take the assault, and if it was escalating, then being in fear for his life is entirely possible - and probable.

Edit: Also, where did you see anything about the younger teen not going to school authorities, or parents, or anyone? I did read the articles you linked on page 1, I didn't see any mention?
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