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Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:15 am

Nikachelle wrote:
Flex wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:Clearly the "killer" (and I don't actually mean that, he was defending himself)


Doesn't mean he didn't kill someone.

In this situation, calling the defender a killer makes him seem guilty of pre-meditated murder and aggravated assault. Which is not what I feel.

But whatever. Make sure you stick your nose in and don't contribute anything at all to the conversation.


I didn't intend to imply anything with the word "killer". It was just a descriptor. He DID, in fact, kill someone. The question we are debating is whether it was justified and moral or not.

I ended up switching to calling him the "stabber", because it seemed to have less of a negative connotation. But you can call a pig a swan, but at the end of the day it's still a pig.
Killing is serious business and not to be taken lightly. If you kill someone, you should do so with full knowledge that you are a killer, and the ability to stand up and look the family of the dead person in the eyes and explain to them why they needed to die. Getting mad at the word, and trying to call the same act by prettier and less serious words instead is just hiding from the fact that the act is what it is.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby bldavis » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:17 am

Nikachelle wrote:Just a note - he wasn't stabbed in the face. He was stabbed in the chest and abdomen. (You've said face twice now, I just wanted to correct it.)

im sorry, i misread
doesnt change how i feel, or the facts

although, stabbing in the face shows agression towards a specific identity
chest and abdomen are more typical defense wounds
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:17 am

Arnock wrote:
Are you telling me that if someone stabbed YOU in the CHEST even ONCE, no matter how small the blade was, that you WOULDN'T stop?


The thing is, we don't know how the fight played out, perhaps the 12 stabs were in quick succession where the attacker didn't have a chance to back off or defend himself, perhaps the first few cuts were superficial scratches that only made the attacker more angry.


Go grab a knife and stab something 12 times and come back and tell me how long it takes you to do it.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:18 am

Brekkie wrote:A swiss army knife is indeed a deadly weapon. It's a blade. Just because it looks cutesy and we use them to whittle in boy scouts doesn't change that fact in the slightest.

Are you telling me that if someone stabbed YOU in the CHEST even ONCE, no matter how small the blade was, that you WOULDN'T stop?

Entirely depends on the situation. Again, we don't know where the first flew stabs landed. And with all the adrenaline pumping, it's possible he didn't even notice the first few hits.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:19 am

If his life was in danger then I don't care if he used a bazooka, but it's a matter of determining whether it's reasonable for him to believe that it was in danger. The judge felt that it was.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:20 am

bldavis wrote:although, stabbing in the face shows agression towards a specific identity
chest and abdomen are more typical defense wounds

That's how I felt about it.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:22 am

The first few, sure. The second few? The third few? The following 6 more? How long does it take to go "Holy cripes, brotatoe's got a knife!" and back the fluff up?
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:27 am

Brekkie wrote:The first few, sure. The second few? The third few? The following 6 more? How long does it take to go "Holy cripes, brotatoe's got a knife!" and back the fluff up?

How do we know he didn't try to back off after the first stab wounds?
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Arnock » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:29 am

Exactly, we DON'T KNOW all of these things. Without knowing how the fight played out, we can't keep making assuptions as to what happened.

What matters, is whether or not the stabber was justified in fearing for his life or great bodily injury. To me, if the attacker was punching the stabber in the back of the head, then the stabber was perfectly justified in bringing out a knife.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Flex » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:30 am

Nikachelle wrote:
Brekkie wrote:The first few, sure. The second few? The third few? The following 6 more? How long does it take to go "Holy cripes, brotatoe's got a knife!" and back the fluff up?

How do we know he didn't try to back off after the first stab wounds?

Pretty sure that would turn it into not self defense.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby cerwillis » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:52 am

bldavis wrote:edit:
what does brekkies job have anything to do with his beliefs?
he said i view killing as a last resort...not as something he hasnt or wouldnt do if needed to
the way i read it is if there is a way to avoid bloodshed, he will take that

Because when you are in the military, you don't get the luxury of a moral decision when ordered to kill, it's not up to you, you do it, or you get court-martialed. Brekkie's CO could give fuckall about whether he thought something was a morally correct use of lethal force, unless it was his job to make that evaluation.

I think more kids at school should carry knives and stab bullies. It might give bullies pause before they decide to fuck with someone.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Flex » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:08 am

cerwillis wrote:Because when you are in the military, you don't get the luxury of a moral decision when ordered to kill, it's not up to you, you do it, or you get court-martialed.


Only for lawful orders. If you are ordered to kill non-combatant civilians you have the right refuse to obey the order.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby cerwillis » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:13 am

Flex wrote:
cerwillis wrote:Because when you are in the military, you don't get the luxury of a moral decision when ordered to kill, it's not up to you, you do it, or you get court-martialed.


Only for lawful orders. If you are ordered to kill non-combatant civilians you have the right refuse to obey the order.

I would be interested to know how often this happens in the US military and what the fallout for the individual typically ends up being. I can't imagine it happens very often, but I don't suppose that I would know if it did.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:34 am

You shouldn't ever be ordered to attack non lawful combatants but mistakes do rarely happen. Even friendly fire event occur on occasion.

I understand your point that military action isn't generally a last resort sort of thing, but it's an entirely different sort of thing than the case we are discussing.

I still don't think we know enough to give specific judgements on this case though, just hypotheticals.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby bldavis » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:38 am

cerwillis wrote:
bldavis wrote:edit:
what does brekkies job have anything to do with his beliefs?
he said i view killing as a last resort...not as something he hasnt or wouldnt do if needed to
the way i read it is if there is a way to avoid bloodshed, he will take that

Because when you are in the military, you don't get the luxury of a moral decision when ordered to kill, it's not up to you, you do it, or you get court-martialed. Brekkie's CO could give fuckall about whether he thought something was a morally correct use of lethal force, unless it was his job to make that evaluation.

I think more kids at school should carry knives and stab bullies. It might give bullies pause before they decide to fuck with someone.

again WTF does being a marine have to do with believing that killing should only be a last resort?

what about all the religious soldiers that feel killing will take them to hell, but do so anyway when ordered to or in order to save their own life?

i never said brekkie should shirk a direct order, nor did i imply he would
you can believe something, but still act differently if its your job

and while i agree something needs done to curb bullying, you want a free-for-all in schools?
i say go back to the days like it was when i was growing up....
when kids fought it out, they didnt rat each other out and try to hide

i fought alot, and i was bullied alot in school
i never took a weapon to school, and never felt so far out of hope that i wanted to

by saying STAB YOUR BULLIES! you are opening the way for kids to shoot up thier schools and claim everyone bullied them
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